Christian McBride with Dan Wilson: From Church Pews to the Jazz Vanguard

A Masterclass in Church Roots and Jazz Virtuosity Recorded live during The Jazz Cruise, this episode features a soulful and humorous interview between eight-time Grammy-winning bassist Christian McBride and his friend and protégé, guitarist Dan Wilson. Originally taped for McBride’s SiriusXM show, The Lowdown: Conversations with Christian, the two discuss Wilson’s unique musical upbringing and his refusal to leave his home in Akron, Ohio, for the bright lights of New York City. In keeping with the format of Christian’s show, the two also play some improvised music together.

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Key Takeaways

• The Pride of Akron: Despite the common belief that jazz musicians must move to New York, Wilson has remained in Akron, Ohio, developing a world-class sound within the competitive "church guitar" culture of the Midwest.

• Church as a Training Ground: Wilson recalls getting his "behind kicked" during services three days a week by older guitarists who blended the styles of Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, and George Benson.

• Breaking Sacred Boundaries: Dan shares how he would get in trouble for playing jazz-influenced lines in a traditional church setting, even though the congregation would "shout" along to his playing.

• The Historian’s Ear: The duo discusses the often-forgotten history of the song "Breezin’," noting that it was written by Bobby Womack, not George Benson.

• Blues Influences: Wilson highlights T-Bone Walker and Howlin' Wolf as major influences, noting that Howlin' Wolf’s personal history as a sharecropper in Alabama mirrored his own great-grandfather’s life.

• The "Blindfold Test": In a signature segment, Wilson correctly identifies the playing of Pat Martino, Russell Malone, and Derek Trucks, while discussing his 20-year friendship with the late Malone.

• Cinematic Connection: McBride and Wilson demonstrate their deep personal bond through a shared obsession with the 1989 film Lean on Me and the specific nuances of James Brown records.

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Afrodeezia on Blue Note.

Transcript

Lee Mergner: Hi, welcome to the Jazz Cruises Conversations podcast. I'm your host, Lee Mergner. This week's episode is number 101 in the series of talks from the sailings of our jazz cruises. This conversation was recorded during the Jazz Cruise earlier this year and features an interview with guitarist Dan Wilson, conducted by his friend and mentor Christian McBride, taped for his Sirius XM show, The Lowdown: Conversations with Christian. The two share their common history, including how Christian learned about Dan and asked him to join the Tip City band, and Dan talks about his start playing guitar in the church. I hope you enjoy the conversation and the music.

Christian McBride: It's very exciting for me to introduce to you first of all how we met. The first time we played together was in Cleveland, Ohio, and my dear friend Terri Pontremoli—the boss of Cleveland—said, "I'm setting you up with a gig with Dan Wilson. You guys are going to play duo." I thought that was pretty gutsy for somebody to come to me and say they're setting me up on a duo gig with someone I don't really know. But when I finally played with this man right here, I fell madly in love with him. He was actually the first signee to my label, Brother Mister, as well. He's the pride of Akron, Ohio. Put your hands together for Mr. Dan Wilson. Dan Wilson—he is my avenging angel.

Dan Wilson: What a blast and what an honor to be here and to be feeling that quarter note for any amount of time. We first actually met on the Jazz Cruise in 2015 when I was here with Joey DeFrancesco. I was probably walking around these halls like a deer in headlights, and I see McBride walking over to me at the bar. I'm thinking, "Is he coming to talk to me?" and sure enough, he was like, "Man, you are a bad mother—"

Christian McBride: I didn't say that!

Dan Wilson: No, it was the PG version. He was like, "Man, I got a gig, if you can make it." The gig didn't end up panning out then, but I was shocked because I've been listening to him since I started playing music. To join your band after that was a blessing.

Christian McBride: You know Dan, you are such a special case because you grew up in—y’all smell paint? Something that’s pretty deep. I was born and raised in Philadelphia and then moved to New York City. It’s pretty much an accepted fact that all great musicians eventually have to move to New York. You have never been. You live in Akron, Ohio. You're not even in Cleveland or Cincinnati. How did you learn to play the way you play in Akron?

Dan Wilson: The church that I grew up in was very particular and very driven by guitar. The district included Akron, Youngstown, Warren, Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, and Pontiac, Michigan. In that district alone, there were about 20 guitar players that could wipe me off the map. Before I ever stepped foot into a jazz club, I was getting my behind kicked Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday during services. All those guys were into Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, and George Benson. The first jazz record I heard was Jimmy Smith and Wes Montgomery, The Dynamic Duo. I remember thinking, "Man, this ain't nothing but church music with a couple more chords."

Christian McBride: Right, right.

Dan Wilson: I would get in trouble all the time in church because it was very traditional. Once I heard Wes Montgomery, I was playing all that stuff in service, and the old schoolers were not feeling it. They said, "Wilson, we're not here for form or fashion." I was like, "But y'all shouting when I'm playing this stuff!"

Christian McBride: I find that at one point, almost everybody came out of church, but there's a disconnect now between the church and secular music. What happened?

Dan Wilson: I think the music shifted. There is more of a disconnect between jazz and gospel now, even though pop bands are still being powered by church musicians. I know the guys in Gladys Knight’s band from Cleveland; they are all church cats. The reason I gravitated toward jazz is because of how we played in church. There was a walking bassline. We weren't allowed to play a funk beat; that was considered sinful.

Christian McBride: Ah, so—

Dan Wilson: Not anymore. When I heard jazz, I was like, "Yeah, this is right at home." The line between sacred and secular has always been blurred for me. Church officials would tell me jazz is "the devil's music" and I'd be out there on drugs, and I'm like, "I've never smoked anything in my life!" That blurred line always comes out in how I approach music.

Christian McBride: Why don't we give them a little taste of what you're talking about? Let's play a tune.

(Dan Wilson and Christian McBride play "Toys" by Herbie Hancock)

Christian McBride: Brother Dan Wilson, everyone! Not only do you come from the church and are a virtuoso, but you are a historian. You remind me of our dearly departed brother, Russell Malone, in how much you know about different styles.

Dan Wilson: Can we have a hand for Russell?

Christian McBride: I could talk to Russell about Wes Montgomery, Chet Atkins, Hank Garland, even Eddie Van Halen. You know about country, rhythm and blues, and rock.

Dan Wilson: I dig it. Like Duke Ellington said, there are two kinds of music: good and bad. If I hear something pleasing to my ears, I'm going after it.

Christian McBride: We did a gig in Cleveland that was a tribute to Bobby Womack. A lot of people forget that Bobby Womack wrote "Breezin'," not George Benson. We did "Communication" and "If You Think You Lonely Now," and Dan knew it all.

Dan Wilson: I wish I could have done the intro on "If You Think You Lonely Now" when he’s talking about things girlfriends got. When I hear that stuff, my brain goes into record mode. Like the intro to "Just to Be Close to You" by the Commodores. I was shocked at how country Lionel Richie was.

Christian McBride: Well, he's from Tuskegee.

Dan Wilson: The first thing you hear on that recording is "Ah!" and then he turns into this smooth brother.

Christian McBride: Tell me about your professional journey. You worked with Joe McBride—was that your first professional experience?

Dan Wilson: That was my first studio experience, my first album in 2009. He arranged pop tunes like Corinne Bailey Rae's "Like a Star" and Vanessa Carlton's "1,000 Miles" as vehicles for us to stretch out on. In Cleveland, if you're going to work, you have to know the funk and the R&B. If you don't work, you can't eat.

Christian McBride: Who are your favorite blues guitar players?

Dan Wilson: T-Bone Walker is at the top of the list. BB King, of course—I learned more from his singing and how he delivered a melody. But my all-time favorite is Howlin' Wolf. His story mimics my great-grandfather’s. He grew up as a sharecropper in Alabama and left home as a teenager because he was being cheated. It was "slavery by another name."

Christian McBride: That first gig we played together was at Mahall's bowling alley in Cleveland. Do you remember the setlist?

Dan Wilson: It's burned in my brain. "Sunny Moon for Two," "Bolivia," and "Honeysuckle Rose."

Christian McBride: Dan and I have a lot of inside references. We can send messages to each other strictly through movie references, mostly from James Brown records or the movie Lean on Me.

Dan Wilson: 1989. The story of Joe Clark. It was supposed to be a docu-drama, but it ended up being a comedy to us.

Christian McBride: In 2018, Joey DeFrancesco was nominated for a Grammy in New York. Dan’s wife was nine months pregnant. A big limo pulls up, the window goes down, and I hear: "Thomas Sams! Get those chains off the doors! The enemy's here!"

Dan Wilson: My wife was like, "What is wrong with you guys?"

Christian McBride: Now comes the segment of the show where you get a Blindfold Test.

(Blindfold Test Segment)

Christian McBride: Guitarist number one.

Dan Wilson: Is that Joe Pass? No... is it Howard Roberts? Wait, that's Pat Martino!

Christian McBride: Correct! From the 1967 album Strings.

Dan Wilson: He was so cool to me. He gave me his card and told me to call him anytime I was in Philadelphia.

Christian McBride: Guitarist number two.

Dan Wilson: Oh yeah, that's Russell Malone. It's hard for me to listen to him; I get choked up. We had a 20-year friendship. He’d call me and tell me the dirtiest jokes I ever heard, but in between was the greatest wisdom.

Christian McBride: Guitarist number three.

Dan Wilson: I'm drawing a blank, but whoever it is is singing on that thing.

Christian McBride: He and his wife have a famous band together.

Dan Wilson: Derek Trucks! Man, he put some soul in there.

Christian McBride: This last one is George Benson.

Dan Wilson: The People's Champ. Whenever I think I'm getting somewhere on the guitar, I play George and I'm brought back to square one.

Christian McBride: The first time I met him, he was so hood. I expected the elegant guy from the Tonight Show, but he was soulful all the way down.

Dan Wilson: He's the most brilliant code-switcher of our time. He could be a mega pop star and the best guitar player that ever lived. He is so accessible and kind.

Christian McBride: Dan Wilson, everyone! My name is Christian McBride. Thank you for joining us on The Lowdown.

Lee Mergner: Thanks for listening. Both Dan and Christian will be sailing on the new program, McBride's World at Sea, January 20th through the 27th. Learn more at mcbridesworldatsea.com. Our theme music is by Marcus Miller. Subscribe to Jazz Cruises Conversations on iTunes or Spotify. Thanks for listening.