108: Emmet Cohen with Benny Benack III

Pianist Emmet Cohen sits down with his longtime friend, trumpeter and singer Benny Benack III, for a conversation recorded during the recent Journey of Jazz cruise. This interview tracks Cohen's journey from a college student to becoming a celebrated artist and future host of The Jazz Cruise. Cohen discusses the inspiration behind his acclaimed "Masters Legacy Series" and the creation of his globally popular "Emmet's Place" online concert series.

Key Takeaways

The episode features an interview of pianist Emmet Cohen by his friend, Benny Benack III.

• Cohen and Benack III have known each other since they were both in high school.
• Cohen began his association with the cruises as part of a student group from the University of Miami's Frost School of Music, where he studied with mentor Shelly Berg.
• His early performances on the cruise included playing passenger jams. He later performed with the New York Voices and the legendary drummer Jimmy Cobb (who played on Kind of Blue).
• Cohen created the "Masters Legacy Series" as a concept to bring his generation closer to jazz masters, since the traditional bands of legends like Art Blakey or Miles Davis no longer existed.
• The Masters Legacy Series includes five recorded albums spotlighting collaborations with elders such as Jimmy Cobb, Ron Carter, George Coleman, Benny Golson, Tudy Heath, and Houston Person.
• The "Emmet's Place" online concert series began on March 20, 2020, when a gig was canceled, and the venue offered to pay his fee if he performed from his apartment.
• The first concert, set up simply with an iPhone on a stack of books, garnered 40,000 views on Facebook.
• Cohen felt a sense of historical continuity with the "Harlem Rent Party" tradition of the 1920s during Prohibition, which mirrored the lockdown environment.
• Benack III noted that Cohen was always one step ahead in the jazz community, being the first to stream successfully with good sound and organization.
• Cohen and Benack III emphasized that the future of jazz revolves around community, and being a "master musician" means uplifting others and making everyone around you sound great.
• Cohen will be hosting The Jazz Cruise next year.

Host and Guest Info

Host: Benny Benack III. 
Guest: Emmet Cohen.

This conversation was recorded on the Journey of Jazz cruise.

The podcast theme music is by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Aphrodesia on Blue Note.

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Aphrodesia on Blue Note.

Transcript

Episode #108: Emmet Cohen with Benny Benack III Recorded on the Journey of Jazz Cruise in the Sky Lounge.

Lee Mergner: Hi, welcome to Jazz Cruis's Conversations. I'm your host, Lee Mergner. This week's episode features a nice talk with two old friends. Benny Benack III sat down during the recent Journey of Jazz Cruise to interview Emmet Cohen, whom he's known since they were both in high school. Emmet shared the story of his journey from being a student at the University of Miami to being a regular, well, then a host on the Jazz Cruise. He also talked about his Masters Legacy series of recordings with his elders and of course he explained the genesis and evolution of his Emmet's Place online concert series. They both took questions from the always engaged audience. I hope you enjoy this lively conversation.

Benny Benack III: Hey everybody, I know we we still have some friends that are I I made a couple stops on the elevator and they said we need to fortify ourselves with food on 10 and we'll see you up there on the Sky Lounge. So amongst all the entertainment and excursions, don't forget to eat, ladies and gentlemen. That's that's one thing you forget about when you're when you're booked busy like this. Me and Emmet have both been running around today, but uh I'm looking forward to this just being able to pick the brain of uh of this genius here. And we spend a lot of time just hanging out, chatting and talking together. But uh I'm sure there's some people here, there might be a few people left on the cruise that aren't already intimately familiar with, uh the gentleman to my right, but uh he has become as indelible a part of the fabric of of this enterprise as you could possibly be. But I'm sure there are still maybe a couple people that are maybe even new to Emmet and his realm. And uh you know, I'm an expert in in Emmet Cohen for half my life. So I'm happy for us to be able to hang out. How about a round of applause for the one and only Emmet Cohen. So uh as I mentioned, this might be redundant for some of you that are ardent Emmet Cohen supporters, but for those of us there were a fair amount of people that this was their first cruise. And you know, everybody comes on because they're Marcus Miller fans or you do Botti because you love Chris Botti. And I had a lot of people tell me this week, "Oh, I was just introduced to you this week. I didn't even I must have been living under a rock. I haven't heard about Emmet Cohen. I I guess I I don't have Wi-Fi. I I'm not on the internet. I don't open YouTube. There may be a couple people". So, you've you've been kind of a lifer here on the cruises. You started as a student, right? And and some people may know the story, but can you just kind of give us a little bit of a summary of your journey from your first Jazz Cruise to now getting ready to be the the sole host of the Jazz Cruise coming up next year.

Emmet Cohen: Thanks, Benny. It's nice to talk to you here. And uh well, the first thing they make you do is a swim test. And so I passed that when I was 21 years old. And uh I I have this uh mentor, his name is Shelly Berg. And If you're in this room, you probably know who that is. He's the dean of the uh University of Miami Frost School of Music for one more year. Um but his his first year was my first year there. We kind of came in together and uh he is heavily involved in the jazz crews and was doing the music direction. Um which means which which is a crazy job uh where you have to figure out who plays in what slot and so none of the musicians are playing in two places at one time and that everyone has time to eat dinner and it's it's a crazy job to put together like the grid for a festival. Um you know without with the majority of the people not coming to complain afterwards you know there are a lot of complainers at every festival so. Um I'm just joking. Um but uh but.

Benny Benack III: No he's not.

Emmet Cohen: Complaining is a part of life you know. And so Shelly uh was brought on a student group here and I was part of the student group. And I played out by the pool party and they they had this passenger jam. I remember really clearly they put me under like a gazebo. It was a different ship but by the pool and the and the sun was kind of like beating down. And uh we had to play with all the passengers and so they would they would come up and someone would come and play the flute and someone would sing and and and it was it was crazy. It was crazy and and I mean I was enjoying myself so I was there with my little trio. And um you know someone would call like uh you know "St. Louis St. Louis Blues" or something and of course I had never heard of it. And so I'd see Ted Rosenthal walking on the side a great wonderful pianist and like Ted how does this go he's like well you know shouting the chord changes at me. Um so have some crazy experiences here and uh we we did a good job the first year and had a great time when they the next year they said you we'd like to welcome you back on we'd need you to accompany the New York Voices. Um and so got a chance to check out their music and rehearse with them on the ship and play their their book. And then there was the next year it was like uh well Jimmy Cobb trio's coming on and starting to get better and better for me. Um Jimmy Cobb came on. It was like the the Passengers then the New York voices. Then Jimmy Cobb I was like for those of you who don't know he was the drummer on the album Kind of Blue and one of the most important jazz drummers of all time. And he was well into his 80s at that point. And so I played with him and uh had some funny memories with him. There was one uh where I said, "Mr. Cobb, it's your trio. What would you like to play?" He's like, anything you want, baby. I was like, I was like, uh, really? Uh, you know, and he's like, "Yeah, you got it. You got it. Well, I trust you." And I said, "Well, is there there one one song you you'd like to play or something?" He's like, "No, no, you got it, baby." And like we're at the we're at the casino, so he's like looking at the slots. I'm like talking to him like this and he he's not looking at me. I'm like, "Was there anything you don't want to play?" And then he looks at me and he's like, "Uh, work song. That I don't want to play." I had to play work song two times a night with with uh with Natly and I never want to play it again. Okay. So I I called the set and played Autumn Leaves and you know all the Miles Davis classics and stuff. And um so I had some really really cool learning experiences here and then uh um you know kind of got more integrated and co-hosted a few years with Christian McBride. And McBride graduated to his own cruise McBride's World at Sea and uh and I'll be hosting um the the Jazz Cruise next year for the first time. only because you you mentioned Jimmy Cobb that made me think of another one of your uh your uh ideas that you brought into reality and that was the Master's Legacy series. And we had another uh luminary from that series that was playing at SF Jazz yesterday. Who got to see Ron Carter? Did everybody get off the ship? Right. So uh again for those that are not familiar, you did a series of albums called the Master's Legacy Series. and you got the opportunity to work with Jimmy Cobb and Ron. Maybe just go over a couple of the other albums that were a part of that. And if you had your brothers, what other masters would you like to see be a part of that? Are there any oxygenarian luminaries that you haven't got to play with yet? You pretty much crossed most of them off the list.

Emmet Cohen: Uh yeah. So I guess the Master's Legacy series was more of a concept than than a project. Was it was a concept in my head. I moved to New York and I and I said, "Well, This is a postmodern time where uh you can't just join the band of Art Blakey or Betty Carter or Ray Brown uh or Miles Davis". There used to be all these bands. You moved to New York and that was the goal to join those bands to play with Freddy Hubard and you know uh and when we got to New York there was there wasn't really that. Uh and so uh I think McBride refers to it as like a bunch of kids raising themselves at Smalls without parents. Smalls is the is the is the main jazz club. It's like the center of the jazz universe and um and they have a jam session there every night till 4:00 in the morning and you just go there and you you know try to sit in at Smalls. And Benny runs a jam session there or ran a jam jam session there for many years. And um I was just like there's no forum for exchange with the with the masters. And so I tried to create a space where I could bring my generation our generation closer to to the to the jazz masters and learn from them. And uh series of live performances, interviews, and uh recorded albums. And so we did one with Jimmy Cobb, and that led me to do one with with Ron Carter, which we did in Vancouver at a live uh concert at Piatt Hall. And for you Vancouver peeps out there, um I think that was 2018 17, and then uh did one one with George Coleman who played with Miles Davis, of course, and then another one with Benny Golson and Tutti Heath. They're both from uh from Philadelphia. And crazy like there, you know, those guys have passed on since then and uh and then we did one with Houston Person who uh was the first one where I didn't really meet them in the recording process. So I got to know Houston here on the cruise and we became friends and did gigs and so when we did that album I had already known him a little bit and we had a more of a concept and an idea of of how to play together and uh and so that was the other one. So that's five albums that we did and I hope to make some kind of anthology or or or a large, you know, box set or something where you could take them all home and have them on the shelf and see it. Uh but I guess, you know, being around Chucho Valdez here, uh to play a duo piano thing with him and have some some of, you know, some of his people and some of my people collaborate together. We've been going to Cuba, uh or we went to Cuba last year and brought some fans um on kind of one of these journeys. It was a journey of jazz to Cuba with uh with 35 of uh wonderful people. Some of them were sitting right in front of me and uh really got a chance to to see and learn Cuba from the inside out and that made me even want to collaborate with Chucho Valdez even more and Paquito D'Rivera even though Pakito if you ask him where he's from he said in my home country of Yugoslavia he just won't say it you know and and it's been it's it's it's been interesting to look he's Cuban obviously um uh but you know the different people from there have different views on on what it means to go back there and play there and even say the word. Um so I've been learning that too and that's been part of the the exchange and uh so Chucho and Pakito are both people that come to mind. Um yeah uh wow there there were some other people that that that kind of um you know you don't always have the time and resources to to make a million albums um just the way that the cycle works and all that but uh if there was someone else there there's a wonderful singer named Mary Stallings who I play with quite often and be nice to record with her. There's another uh pianist and s vocalist named Johnny O'Neal in New York who's who's quite quite lovely and yeah we've had Sheila Jordan on the live stream um and she was 93 when she she came there and she passed away this year a couple weeks ago actually and um yeah wow so I remember meeting Jimmy Heath when I first moved to New York and uh Roy Haynes and so many met a lot of those people on the cruise too. Uh Buster Williams is still here, fantastic bass player and Lenny White, drummer. So there are some masters uh out there that I'd love to record with and you know waiting for the right opportunity and you know we also have recorded on the live stream too. So I've had a lot of those people up there so that's draw some continuity.

Benny Benack III: Well uh in in jazz circles if you just say the live stream at this point it's pretty synonymous. I would say most jazz fans know what Emmet Cohen is talking about when he says the live stream. But, you know, for the Luddites in the audience, in case there is somebody that does not own a computer, maybe you're off the grid, uh we can get you up to speed a little bit. Uh for a lot of people that their introduction to Emmet was the live stream sort of in this emerging pandemic world, uh you might think that it was sort of like an overnight success or it was kind of a lightning in a bottle and it was just like all of a sudden Emmet Cohen was on YouTube every day and now he's hosting a jazz cruise. But For those of you that were kind of in on the ground floor, the early adopters, you you know that uh you know, the the hustle and and and the the building blocks were already in place long before the pandemic. And I think his live stream, Emmet's Place, was you know, somebody that had a front row seat, literally. I I think that was kind of just the the straw that broke the camel's back. You know, that was sort of what just opened up the dam and really just kind of allowed the rest of the world to to get hip to what, you know, the kind of insular jazz community already knew was going on with Emmet. Um, but in case there are folks that uh maybe have not seen all 100 and some odd, you know, however many episodes you've had, uh, the name of the live stream, Emmet's Place, uh, of course, I wanted you to talk about the very beginning of that, sort of what prompted it, what spurred it, and maybe my question to you is as things got started when it was really kind of bare bones, could you have ever imagined it becoming in 5 years as you approach the uh the final show in your apartment. Did you have an idea that that's what it was going to become? Did you really think it through that much? Maybe at what point along the way did you realize, man, we might be on to something. This might be something special that we're that we're growing.

Emmet Cohen: It's crazy. I've never been truly a long-term goal-oriented person. Um and I think that that tends to happen when you come up as a jazz artist. You know, you just make one goal like I want to play with this person. I want to play with Christian McBride. Um, I want to, you know, so I learn all Christian McBride's music and I follow him around to every single gig. And it takes 10 years and in 2016 he calls me for a gig and puts finally, you know, it works out and we have a band together and start touring a little bit. And um, you know, I I I think it's, you know, helpful when you're an artist to direct yourself. Uh, it's not like a business or or you know, something where you want to make a 10-year plan. Um, I mean, maybe when you're a little bit older and you say, "I want to play less gigs". Benny Benny plays about 314 nights a year. Uh, so his 10-year plan, I don't know if that's sustainable. So, we'll Well, actually, yeah, we'll we'll get with Chat GBT and make your 10-year plan later, Benny. Yeah. Um, but uh but you know, everything shut down and and the goal was really to to just do one thing online that would bring people joy. And there was this guy in uh in Kansas at the Lead Center where we're supposed to play that particular night of March 20th, 2020. And he said uh uh we we we want to support artists, so we're going to pay you for this gig, the full fee, which was not that much, but um it was something every we got have everything cancelled. We were like, we could eat on this for, you know, a couple weeks. Um and uh he said, we'll give you the full fee if you just do something from your apartment. So I said, great. So we we took it really seriously and uh was with Russell Kahal and Kyle Pool at the time. And we put on suit and ties, which was uncustomary for us. You know, Benny sleeps in a suit.

Benny Benack III: Some of us, yeah.

Emmet Cohen: Benny sleeps in a suit and tie, but we we wanted to make a statement like, you know, we're uh we're taking this seriously. And and I set up my little iPhone and leaned it on a a stack of books on the table. And Kyle brought his drum set down the street. He lived lived two blocks away. And he we carried it down the street and up five flights of stairs. And set it up and um and then uh you know Russell came over. He lived uh about 6 minutes away on by foot. He wheeled his bass down the hill and and uh we played a concert and that first concert that we did it looked like so foggy and grainy and uh it sounded like a Game Boy like like you know the early 90s um sound technology 8bit or something like no depth to the sound. And And uh and that concert got 40,000 views on Facebook. And I was like, man, how long would it take us to reach 40,000 people in real life, you know, playing smalls for 60, 80, 100 people? And so I was like, we're really on to something. So let's make another show and then make another show. We decided to do it every week. And it became like our weekly devotional where it was cathartic for us to play and it and we lived in Harlem where there are no rules. you know, everyone, all my friends in Europe and stuff and my, you know, even downtown New York City, um, you know, they were really strict about everything and and it was like the wild, wild west in Harlem. And then I realized that it must have also been like that during Prohibition, um 100 years earlier in the Roaring 20s, uh when, um the same kind of Harlem Rent party thing was going on and there was like this historical continuity that just seemed so right. and so like connected and so meant to be and serendipitous in the moment. Um and and so we just really followed that and and up the technology a little bit and got ordered microphones and put them on the instruments and I'm like doing sound while I'm playing and you know then uh uh one of the camera guys I know video videographers he said you know I'm coming back from Tucson. I'm done quarantining and I want to uh you know try out this this ATM switcher. It's like the technology that they use like when you watch a sports game, they follow the ball. They're like camera three and you know and uh we we did some tests on it and it was pretty cool. And he brought in four cameras, three cameras or whatever. And now now it's five cameras and uh and there was another a sound guy uh who Cole call emailed me like I see you doing sound by yourself like looks like you might need some help. And I was like god damn it I got this. Like I don't have enough but to hire a sound man too to come up here. And I let that email sit in my box for like a week. And then I was like, "Why don't you come by and see what we what we're working with and see?" And he made my life so so much easier uh that he he he hasn't missed one since. And he went on to uh to start doing sound for Cecil McLaren Salvant and Samar Joy. And so his career kind of took off from that as a soundman. And a crazy story that I was realizing last last week when we were in the house was that um there were some sometimes from time to time people email me and like can I come sit in the house um and I say well I need to check your tax returns first um you know it's mostly people who sponsor and stuff but I make a joke that there's financial aid if like you really can't afford it and you want you wanted to see you wanted to see one um you know maybe we could work something out so uh so this girl e emails me and I also let that sit in the box. I'm like oh man you know cuz There's only about 10 seats in the house. Um, and so I sometimes I say there's like a little mosh pit by the front door. I was like, "You can come stand in the mosh pit if you want, you know." And, uh, she came there and she fell in love with the soundman and they've been together for two years. And it's like this and it's like this Emmet's Place love story and I realized that they both cold call emailed me the same way.

Benny Benack III: That's crazy.

Emmet Cohen: I was like, "You guys are two P's in the pod". And so they're like on their way to to, you know, to starting a life together and and it yeah, just there was like magical musical moments but also magical personal moments that stemmed from it.

Benny Benack III: Well, I think that one... Rosemary already knew it. Rosemary, if you don't know Rosemary, she's sitting here in the front row. She's sort of the spokesman of of team Emmet and she has her own uh squadron that is spread out around the country, around the world. And even even for me as kind of like a you know recurring guest character on Emmet's place, I have some of these fans come up to me around the world and say, "Hey, you know, I'm I'm with Rosemary". And you always got to get a picture. And Rosemary likes to say, "If you're one of her musicians, you're one of Rosemary's babies". So, we're all we're all Rosemary's babies. Did I start that? I don't know. I'm good with slogans, I guess. I don't know. Um Well, the the thing that I think is important also to highlight about what helped Emmet's place catch lightning in a bottle is sort of something that is just emblematic of Emmet as a person because like I said we've known each other half our lives,. We met in high school at at one of these you know basically jazz summer camps effectively that for national students and he was the best piano player he always got in and I was the best trumpet player I always got in. So we kept seeing each other at these things over and over again and uh and the thing that I've noted about Emmet over the last years. I mean, we're a part of what I think timing wise is really kind of like a special generation in this music because we sort of like we were alive at a time when there wasn't the internet, you know, and we remember what it was like to go and buy physical music at a Borders or a Barnes & Noble. Like we caught the tail end of of kind of like the analog world, but also at our age, we grew up and you know, we we got on Instagram when everybody got on Instagram and you know, Emmet has has been you know, writing a newsletter for years now and we're sort of like this bridge generation. Um, but at the time that I was at the Manhattan School of Music in New York, it was like I walked in one practice room and it was Sullivan Forner. I walked in another practice room was Christian Sans. Then I walked in another practice room or it wasn't really a practice room because Emmet was already probably playing a gig. So I went to a club somewhere and Emmet would be playing a gig. And you know looking on stage last night seeing Cecilele McLaren Salvant doing her thing and seeing Tavon playing with Gregory Porter. Tavon was at University of Miami with Emmet. So, I guess what I'm saying is there's there's a generation the people that you kind of come up with, you feel this attachment to. And we're at a point now where like the people that I came up with are winning Grammys and are on the cover of Downbeat and are hosting the Jazz Cruise and uh yeah, and even, you know, amongst all of these people that have become the leading voices of their generation. For us, Emmet Emmet is a leader. He's he's always kind of been Paul Rivere, you know, he's like one always one step ahead. He's always one step ahead. And I think part of the reason that Emmet's Place popped off the way it did. Yes, there was a lot of, you know, fortuitous. I mean, he was talking about New York. I think when it started, the rule in New York was you had a bubble. Like, you had a social bubble. You were allowed to interact with like these three people. And it just so happened, like he said, Russell and Kyle and myself, everybody lived in Harlem. So, Kyle and Russell were within like two blocks of his apartment. So, like that worked out perfectly. they were in each other's, you know, COVID bubble. But Emmet was the first person to do that. Like now every jazz club in the world has the cameras set up. Everybody knows how to hit play on Instagram. Like everybody, you know, was catching up to him. But I think the reason that his stream was so successful was that he was the first one to do it. And then he was the first one to do it with good sound and with good audio. And it hasn't just been that, but I mean our entire lives it was like when we all got to New York, Emmet was the first one that found a way to play a gig. at Jazz and Lincoln Center and we had these gigs at Disney's Club back then, Disney's Club Coca-Cola and it was like Emmet's trio like once once a month he had a week residency there and the rest of us were just trying to play catchup and get our own gigs there a year later and like by the time I had a gig at Dizzy's I was all excited about that. Emmet was already on the road with his trio and he would find a way to piece together these tours like he'd play solo piano at the temple on a Monday to bridge him to the next club at Tuesday and they'd be staying at somebody's house and would clog up the toilet in some, you know, somebody's mansion and it was like this real like grassroots DIY.

Emmet Cohen: I wish I wish he was joking about that.

Benny Benack III: Yeah. But I mean, it was like just Emmet was like it's like he said, he set an intention. I'm going to get my band on the road and he figured out a way to do it. And then by the time that the rest of us caught up and were like, "Oh, if you play here in Minneapolis, maybe you can tack on this in Chicago and then you can do the house concert here at in uh, you know, elsewhere". Then it was like Emmet was already on to major clubs and major tours. So, like he's always been a step ahead. He was the first person to tell me to get into cryptocurrency and that was in 2017. So, you know, whatever it is about...

Emmet Cohen: Benny just bought his first apartment in Harlem.

Benny Benack III: Yeah. Right. And he beat me by about 10 years on that, too. So, Emmet has always I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is about his brain, but he's always one step ahead. So, I guess uh if you have any insider information for the people here in the Sky Lounge, like Nostradamus, like what the next trend? What's the next big thing to invest in? What's what's the next what is Emmet Cohen peering into his crystal ball? Uh what what's the next phenomenon that's coming?

Emmet Cohen: The next thing that everyone wants to be sure to do is look into each other's eyes and put their phones away and talk and just be a human beings amongst each other. I think I think things are are mostly cyclical. Um and you know, we live in a in a just a crazy time of uh everyone hiding behind their internet account or behind their Twitter or um or live stream or whatever it is. And you know, the great the great joy that I've found that everything that comes every everything great comes from is is just one word and it's community. And when we started doing the live stream, you know, it wasn't just a camera. on me. It was look at these great musicians who live in Harlem who we've been playing with for 10 years, developing music with uh uh you know, playing these playing these gigs, sleeping on couches. I probably slept on some of your couches in the Midwest. And um you know, play playing the playing these gigs just because we love the music. And I think uh that was the the the the really rich part about what happened in the life dream was all those musicians coming together in different ways. And um and the same thing for uh for Smoke Jazz Club. I I played the organ at Smoke Jazz Club um probably between 2014 and 2019 or something like almost five years. Had a residency and it would be again for no money. Um just pizza and chicken wings and salad. And then one day they said, "You don't even get that anymore. It's just sandwiches." So they got no meat. It was just caprese sandwiches. They couldn't even put a piece of ham on there. And so we play for sandwiches and two hours at Smoke Jazz Club every Wednesday night. But I would invite anyone who wanted to play, students or legends or adults or anyone, and we'd uh we just jam. And um and I think that's where I found the most richness uh in the soil is just, you know, by by bringing people together in whatever in whatever way possible. And that's why something like this, like the jazz cruise is so special. That's why uh jazz festivals in general are are so necessary or music festivals or anywhere you go to a club and you hear live music. It's not that you're it's not only that you're hearing the live music, it's that you're hearing live music with other people. You're seeing how they react to it. You're seeing how they hear music. And it's the same when we when we were learning to to play jazz. We would have these listening parties from uh midnight to 8 in the morning and uh and we just listen to jazz all together and Benny would hear something in the trumpet and I would be like, "Oh yeah, wow". Okay. When the when the trumpet player does that, the piano player does this. And I would have never realized that if I wasn't listening to the to to music with with with Benny or other friends like that. And you know, when we play together, it seems like we're just having fun and like off the cuff. But like there's been a lot of studying that that came as a community, listening to music together, trying to figure out how, you know, how to play together um in different ways and then evolving that. Um and I think if we're talking about trends now, Emmet's Place um you know, it's like, okay, it's been going on for five years. Like, most things in jazz, most good things in jazz only last five years. Um, that's that's that's the rule. If you think of like, uh Miles Davis's great bands, um the ones in the 50s, the one in the 60s, they they lasted about five years. Uh if you think about John Coltrane's great quartet, lasted about five years. Um, and, um, yeah, and so I'm like, you know, what what's what's the future? And so, we've started to have these young musicians on the stream. So, we'll have like a or something and then I'll I'll tell my team like my research team just one guy named Spencer. I'm like Spencer f find someone that plays saxophone that's like everyone's talking about in New York City and he'll ask around and he's like okay I got you this so and so never heard the name before. I'm like okay invite him to the to to the thing tell him be there at 5:30 and uh you know guy comes I meet him right there and and Kurt Elling singing and I'm like all right you're in kid. Um, and and he was awesome and people just loved it so much and I was like, "Okay, the the the continuence of the live stream will will be about younger musicians and I always was the young guy". Thanks. You know, it's I was always the youngest guy on stage and in the band and a lot of times I still am. Um, but then, you know, just being in New York City going out to his club or something or looking around, you're like, "That guy's playing some crazy stuff and he's 20 years old". Um, and maybe it's not fully formed and maybe there's some shortcomings still, but like I can you can see the ingredients that if nurtured, that person is going to be one of the greats. And if I could have a small part in nurturing or just helping just just a a little bit. I think um I think that's uh the way that Emmet's placed that's way the live stream that's way uh everything um in life continues and and um develops in in the most wholesome way. And Even here on the cruise, you know, we'll have a meeting with with with Michael Lazerof, you know, being the being the host. He's like, "What do you want to do?" I'm like, "Well, you know, we we have like no student representation on the cruise right now". And I think that that's the most important thing to do. It's like, "So, so how do you do that?" So then it got my wheels turning like what if we set set up like a competition, like an online competition or something and people from, you know, colleges around the country uh could send in their audition tapes and I make Benny watch all the audition tapes.

Benny Benack III: I'm perpetually online anyway. It's fine.

Emmet Cohen: Benny's on his phone anyway. So, um, no, but there's some kind of judging system and and we pick people that would would, you know, would make a a great young band and put them together and put them out in the pool party to accompany the passengers and and one day they'll take my job. Um, so anyway, that that those are some some things I think about and and when I'm put in a position like to to be a host or or some kind of a um you know some kind of a leadership role. I think those are always things to to think about and really just comes down to how can you help others? you know, how can you help others? And you you listen to your favorite musicians uh that you want to see over and over and over again. Um and those are the people that play well with others that that uplift others. Like what does it mean to be a master musician? It means to make everyone around you sound great. It's to sound better. to be the best version of themselves. And that's what I learned from playing from the Masters Legacy series, from playing with all the Masters, from playing on this cruise with Ruben Rogers sitting in the back with Joe Farnsworth. Um, they really do their best to make to to elevate everyone and u and I think that that when you do that, um, that's that's the the key to the future.

Benny Benack III: Yeah. Well, I was really just thinking more in terms of like which cryptocoin you could tell me to invest in, but I suppose that's also a fine answer. Um, no, that's that's hitting the nail on the head. And uh, we...

Emmet Cohen: Don't gamble your life savings away. That's...

Benny Benack III: You go. Stay away from the casino, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, no, we we want to have a little bit of time for some Q&A and then actually we're going to be back here on this stage with Ruben Rogers and Joe Farnsworth. We have uh my last show, I guess, is going to be coming up here in an hour or so, but we have a little bit of time if anybody has any pressing questions. Yeah. Okay. A couple up front. Go ahead. Go ahead, ladies. We'll make our way to the back. We got a mic coming up here. Thank you. Thank you.

Audience Member (PJ): Hey, thank you. Um I a long-term member... and part of the what? Emmet Cohen, exclusive band and the West Coast representative of Rosemary's Garden, San Francisco Jazz, San Francisco. So yeah. Um yeah. So What are the chances then that the next shows can go can start 30 minutes later? You know, for us West Coast freaks, um it because it would allow a lot of us, by the way, I also represent a lot of us on on your... Yeah. your performances who have our two monitors and we we have our work Zooms that are still going on and we turn off. Yeah. Yeah. What company do you work at? We got our earpods with the concert while we're also trying to keep track of what's going on in our work world for those of us who still live in San Francisco.

Emmet Cohen: So, this is how lobbying works in the government. You find someone with influence and resources and you get a bunch of people behind you and they're like, "We want a show start at 8 8:00 p.m. Eastern time". Um, I'm open to it. I'm I'm open to it. Um, you know, it's always a rush getting it together for 7:30 anyway. Um, you should see it in the house. We're like, "Ah, check the the the microphone, the bass drum microphone. It's not working. Can you can you do can we do one more test?" And like, you know, Spencer's outside listening on the headphones and the sound guys running around and um, so it's quite stressful, but um, we do have a plan to move the live stream uh somewhere. Um, but I mean, you know, I always thought it would be good to kind of give it a grand ending and do a big finale. It's like kind of like when Michael Jordan retired, you know, and then he came out of retirement and, you know, it was special, you know, he retired at the top of the game and then he came back in um, you know, so I, you know, I just I I really just want people to value how much time and effort and work goes into it and people have been so generous with sponsorships and it's really expensive to put those shows on um, and pay the musicians and uh, you know, just uh, have the resources is to uh to you know piano tuning alone in New York City. Uh getting some food for everyone at the end of the live stream. Um you know paying the musicians young and old. Some people want more and some people don't care. Um but you know it's part of the joy of doing that is to create an ecosystem and a and a way to to support musicians and that's what it that's what it's always been. So you know I never want to skimp on that. And so part of my job is to to collect funds and fund raise. A lot of people love to sit in the house. Um, and I also have this uh what what was your name?

Audience Member (PJ): PJ.

Emmet Cohen: PJ pajamas. I mean instead of Mondays with it could be instead of Mondays with Emmet. Maybe it could morph into like Michael Jordan's return of monthlies at Emmet's. Yeah. Well, it's already it's a it's a new monthly it's a new monthly show. at 30 minutes at least 8 p.m. Anyway, PJ mentioned about uh about like she's a member. I also have um uh I I realized that the record industry kind of shrunk up and there was there there's there's no such thing as paying for music really. You pay pay to go see someone live, but music is free. And it's it's been a hard thing for a lot of people to to reckon with that music is essentially just free. I mean, you buy a CD, it's some goes to the record label and and people don't really listen. the CDs. There's no CD players in the new cars. It's just a glorified coaster now. Um cuz we don't want to stain those tables. Uh but uh so so I I wanted to figure out a way to kind of even the playing field and and Patreon was the best model that that kept coming up and that's when you can support your favorite artist uh once a month or once a year or you know once a uh whatever when they put out content or whatever. And so I created my own Patreon on my website and it's called uh exclusive and uh that's a great place for for people to support the live stream and everything else. So that's what PJ was talking about. And then uh and then the members of exclusive uh we automatically just send the CD when they come out. So there's no reason to like buy it or or um or you know go through that whole process. It's like there's people that want to support and they get the they support and the CD is a gift because music's free. Uh so that's that's a cool uh you know art. artist model that I think that more artists should adopt, especially young young musicians. I grew up in the Napster Limewire era. So, I was downloading like individual tracks off off recordings and trying to um you know, trying to listen to them on my my iPod Nano. Is that what it was called? Uh yeah. So, we still got some old school uh you know technology stuff in our in our history, but um and so the people who joined exclusive also we give first dibs to anything exciting that we we decide to do. So, we took 35 people to Cuba this year um on a kind of a humanitarian trip, but we also collaborated with Cuban musicians and play with an orchestra and I had these arrangements written and so uh that that trip didn't make it past the exclusive members. Um so, so sign up and be a part of something that we're doing. Um so, and all right, we'll we'll make a case for 8mm, whatever the next iteration is.

Benny Benack III: Couple more. questions, y'all. We got We got a few minutes left. You had one up here, right in the front. Then we're we'll head on back while the microphone's up front.

Audience Member: Well, you just talked about what I was going to say. I know. One step ahead. Always. Always one step ahead. Well, that's the point is one step ahead. You have been very influential in saving jazz for the next generation because you're coming up with all these new ideas. And I was going to mention getting an vinyl in the mail like from you or the cover of the next album, a piece of artwork, a CD. I do have a CD. The I was just going to comment on what great ideas you have to bring jazz to the next generation, which is very helpful. for our generation.

Emmet Cohen: I appreciate that and thanks for always supporting. You were there on day one of that pandemic. You were there on day one of that pandemic and I'll never forget you.

Benny Benack III: We got a few more towards the back of the room. We have our lovely microphone attendant getting her steps in. Just in that general area, you know, we're only we're cutting into my soundcheck and I don't need a sound check. So, we can we can we can stretch. It's cool.

Audience Member: So, uh Emmet uh social media can be a double-edged sword, I think. So, how do you deal deal with some of the negative I assume there's some negative stuff that comes your way. Um, how how does that how do you deal with that?

Emmet Cohen: Um, that's a really good question. I mean, there's there's a lot of negativity online. Um, because people get to hide behind a fake profile or behind a PFP, which is like a profile picture or something, and you don't know who people are. Uh, so I think, you know. But in order to put yourself out there in 2025, you have to know that uh you you'll get you'll get mixed reviews and not everyone's going to love what you what you do. And uh both of us, we've gone through uh periods of of uh extreme hate on online um and people kind of slandering and saying stuff. And you you put out a video, do you think it's kind of cool? And someone will even just comment, "This is the worst playing I've ever seen". You're not an artist. Uh you know. And you know, you just have to look at it and be like, well, you know, you put yourself out there, you have to be willing to uh to to brush those kinds of things off. And so, I think a lot of artists are sensitive and in your deepest, darkest moments, you are. But you also have to keep that wall of protection up because even on this cruise, people come by and say the god-awful things to you and they think and they think it's funny, you know, they think it's funny or they, you know, they'll comment on someone's weight or they'll, you know, say something about 's hairline or say something like about anything and uh and you don't know what someone's sensitivities are. And so uh and so it happens uh fairly often being anywhere. Uh and then amongst the musicians it's really competitive because um because people are jealous or they're angry or um they see something that they don't like in themselves in mirrored in in you or whatever. And so you know the more the more you live the more you experience those kinds of things. and you just have to take a deep breath and and sometimes separate yourself from it. Uh if you can't handle it, then maybe you don't post on social media. It's not the it's not the end of the world. I have two people who help me with my social media and we basically have a conference every day about what we're going to do or what good moment there was from the live stream or what thing we have to promote coming up. And so I can spend a couple of days without going on Instagram myself. Um and it'll still the machine will still happen. So I've protected myself by having people who who help run my run my thing. Benny is all himself um all natural and uh and and so he has to have a little thicker skin than I do because he's on there all day long.

Benny Benack III: You know, Emmet is uh he's the product of two psychologist parents, you know, so he well one very prominent and I think he grew up around that. So Emmet is usually looking for the deeper meaning, you know, and in my case sometimes if somebody comes up to me and you know has something to say or they comment something online. And I'm just taking it at face value very literally and I'm just like man you know forget this guy but Emmet is always like like he said he's able to like go deeper and say oh well what is the thing in myself that they are mirroring it's always like therapist talk. And Emmet Emmet is I I will tell you he's always one step ahead. Emmet was the first one in my life to tell me that I needed a therapist.

Emmet Cohen: And I got it I got it in. I was like... it only took one dinner with Benny's mom to realize that he needed a... Yeah.

Benny Benack III: So, Emmet Emmet is very very adept at uh getting beneath the surface and I think that's also part of why so many people uh are drawn to him and why his audience is growing because you can sense that there's like a very genuine thing about who he is when he's on stage and it's sincere and he's not really interested in surface level things. You know, if he's getting to know somebody, if a musician comes over to the house, it's somebody that he hasn't met before. It's not about like platitudes. in small talk like Emmet will like find a question that's going to make somebody uncomfortable. It's going to make them think like he really is probing because he wants to just get really past all of the walls that we all put up and and and get to the root of who people are and connect and uh you know that resonates with so many people. You watch them on your computer screen and you can feel that authenticity and and that's something that is unique for a lot of artists.

Emmet Cohen: That reminds me la last week at the live stream um we had this 71-year-old uh vibrophone player named Steve Nelson, like true genius, and um been in the music forever. And um I also in the last four episodes of of the live stream have uh hired this videographer to come and like just shoot the thing just in case we ever do a documentary or something like that. If anyone wants to help me make a documentary about Emmet's Place, come see me after. Um but uh you know somebody Okay. Yeah. Uh and anyway, uh so I was asking Steve some questions and about being in New York and moving to New York and in this in late s and who we played with. And the videographer like kind of zeroed in and it turned into this impromptu interview and we have this whole interview. Well, everyone's setting up around us and I'm in like gym shorts and like a tank top or something interviewing one of the greatest jazz legends, but it just kind of spurred from from just my curiosity. So, that's that made me think of that.

Benny Benack III: Two more, y'all. And we got a we got a wrap for uh the Benny Benack Quartet coming up.

Audience Member: Hello there. We've really enjoyed this week. It's been amazing. My husband and I first First timers will be back. Welcome. Welcome. Thank you. I'm interested to know Emmet if you'll come back to Payatt Hall one day and even better play the venue next door, the Oreium in Vancouver.

Emmet Cohen: Yeah, I mean I I'll come anywhere where the where the where the deal is right. Yeah, there you go. But but I mean the the way it's filtered like I have agents and they kind of reach out or field offers and it's based on when we're going to be in the area and what the availability is and then what the project is and what else they have on their schedule around that time. So, there's so many variables, but I know we'll be in Vancouver at the K Meek Center in April. Yeah. On on our tour and ne next year.

Audience Member: Awesome. Next year. And we'll have dinner at your house before uh I don't eat red meat and dairy. I cut I recently cut out dairy except this morning I got a little bit of my eggs. Um but uh I forgot what I was going to say. Yeah. Oh, okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, wait for the microphone. Wait, wait. For those in the cabins, there you go. I think personally, I've been watching you since March of 2020. And I told you once how I appreciated you because that was a a dark moment for for me and my family. And that um you know, watching you and Kyle and and Russell was just heavenly. Um but I see you're growing into a comedian now. I think you're funny. I think you're expanding on your talents. And that's all I have to say.

Emmet Cohen: Well, I mean, it's a it's a weird time to be a human being. And I think uh I've been around a lot of people who use humor as a way to get through it all. And you know, if I can make someone laugh or make myself laugh or feel comfort comfortable enough to to to to get through to the next to the next phase, by laughing it off, especially when the hate comes in or anything else. Like, you have to be able to make a joke about it. Um, one of my favorite jazz musicians of all time, Tutti Heath. Um, he would just make a joke about anything and make a, you know, just just one of the biggest riots of a of a human being I ever ever knew. And I channel some of that sometimes when I'm on stage. He would just pick on people in the front and he would just say all kinds of he'd say the worst things you could possibly imagine. Yeah. No, I mean, you know, he He went a little over the top, but but his timing was just just just incredibly genius. Yeah. So, a lot of jazz jazz and comedy go together, and I like to to make people laugh, you know.

Benny Benack III: All right. How about one more back there? We'll wrap things up.

Audience Member: Thanks so much for the uh your talent, both of you. Actually, um one question I have for you are either of you ever coming to London in the next little while? Um...

Emmet Cohen: I think we'll be in London the same week actually at different places, but uh sometime in November I'll be at Wigmore Hall. Um which is a nice venue, but it's too small and it sold out last time and people were angry. So you better look look soon in November.

Benny Benack III: Uh I think uh I think it's November 9th at King's Place in London, I believe. Y either the 8th or 9th or the 10th, but yeah, we're like we're we're going to be around Europe around the same time. So And then the following November, we'll do it again. This is a kind of a little series that's going on.

Audience Member: You guys need to be at Ronny Scott.

Emmet Cohen: We We've been many times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Benny Benack III: Well, guys, you know, uh it's it's part of Emmet's contractual obligation that he has to stop and chat with everybody as one of the hosts. So, don't feel like you're uh imposing if you need to. Uh you know, we were sitting in the hot tub the other day and it was like every every time I dunk my head down on the water, I'd come back up and another person was like, "I wanted to Thank you for the live stream". It was just like over and over again. But that's what we're here for. So, this is the end of the interview, but you got Emmet for another day here. So, if you have any other dying questions, how about it for Emmet Cohen, everybody?

Emmet Cohen: How about it for Benny Benack III?

Benny Benack III: So, uh, we're going to take a little break and, uh, we're going to be playing here in just a moment. Emmet's got some more things going on today. And if you still have something you need us to sign or you want to take a picture or whatever, you know, speak now or forever hold your piece. We got another day together. So, thank you everybody.

Lee Mergner: Well, you know, Benny and Emmet are two very impressive musicians and people with a lot of personal history and chemistry together. They both have a real sense of community as well. Both will be sailing on the Jazz Cruise departing for the Caribbean from Fort Lauderdale on January 27th. For those unfamiliar with the cruise, I can tell you it features more than 100 artists and 200 hours of music. Headliner include Katherine Russell, Ron Carter, Paquito de Rivera, Chucho Valdez, Curt Elling, Anat Cohen, Janice Seagull, Monty Alexander, Matthew Whitaker, John Pitzerelli, Veronica Swift, and dozens more. Yeah, it really is straight ahead jazz heaven. There really there really are just a few cabins left. So, you can learn more at thejazzcruise.com. Our theme music is by Marcus Miller from his song High Life on his album Aphrodesia on Blue Note. Thanks to Scott the sound engineer in the sky lounge for capturing this and many other talks from the journey of jazz cruise. So don't forget to subscribe to this Jazz Cruises conversations podcast iTunes Spotify wherever you get them. Uh then you won't miss a single episode and you know we've got an incredible back catalog of more than 100 interviews from past sellings. Thanks for listening.