Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra: 40 Years of Big Band "Gravy" & Serving the Music

Show Notes: 105: John Clayton & Jeff Hamilton with Marcus Miller

This episode of Jazz Cruises Conversations, recorded live on the Journey of Jazz '25 cruise, features an interview conducted by co-host Marcus Miller with John Clayton (bassist/arranger) and Jeff Hamilton (drummer), the longtime co-leaders of the Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra (CHJO). The conversation focused on the formation and 40-year history of their Grammy Award-winning big band, which performed on the cruise and also backed Diana Krall.

• Formation and Longevity: Clayton and Hamilton first discussed starting a big band in 1972 while in college at Indiana University, but officially began the orchestra in 1985. Keeping the band together for 40 years involved delegating tasks: John was responsible for writing the charts and arranging, while Jeff managed the finances and knew which musicians in Los Angeles to call and who would "get along together and played great".
• Musician Selection and Personality: The CHJO intentionally seeks out musicians who bring personality and "gravy" to their playing, rejecting the "clean studio precision" typical of many Los Angeles "reading bands" and "rehearsal bands". John Clayton's arrangements are often written specifically for the personalities of the musicians, much like Duke Ellington did.
• Integration and Inclusivity: The co-leaders were determined to have a "rainbow colored band" and were both vocal about wanting an integrated band, contrasting with the predominantly white or all-white bands historically prevalent in jazz. They continue to be open to musicians regardless of sex or definition, provided they maintain the band’s quality. 
• Working with Vocalists: The band has successfully collaborated with singers such as Joe Williams, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Cécile McLorin Salvant, Barbara Morrison, and Ernie Andrews. When arranging for a vocalist like Diana Krall, John Clayton writes for the individual person.
• Program Selection: The CHJO prioritizes playing music that makes the band happy, rather than catering to audience requests.
• Big Band Challenges: The challenges for big bands have changed over the decades. Unlike the past where touring was common via bus, big bands now rely on opportunities like music series in concert halls across the US and may fly to do single concerts.
• Drummer's Role: Jeff Hamilton (the drummer) adheres to the philosophy of Mel Lewis that a musician should not change their style for the group but rather "serve the music" and invite others into their beat. John Clayton praised Jeff's ability to achieve a sound that is "not loud but it's full," allowing the music to reach all parts of the bandstand without monitors.
• Arranging Style: To keep his compositions contemporary and avoid being in a "rut," John Clayton actively seeks out different resources to expand his writing vocabulary, colors, and ideas. The CHJO's arrangements include John's unique sound, or "gravy," often written with specific musicians in mind, like Mel Lewis's loose relaxation or Oscar Brashear's personality.
• Mentorship and Education: Both Clayton and Hamilton actively teach and share their knowledge. John Clayton received guidance from Ray Brown when he was 16, who instilled the responsibility of "passing it on" to others. Jeff Hamilton noted that they had a CHJO youth orchestra for about three years in Los Angeles and have mentored many successful music

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Afrodeezia on Blue Note.

Transcript

Lee Mergner: Hi, welcome to Jazz Cruises Conversations. I'm your host, Lee Mergner. This week's episode features another interview from the recent Journey of Jazz Cruise. Marcus Miller, co-host of That Sailing, talked with John Clayton and Jeff Hamilton, who not only played with their old friend Diana Krall, but also performed with their Grammy award-winning big band, the Clayton Hamilton Jazz Orchestra. So, Marcus talked with John and Jeff about that group's formation and its long 40-year history. Marcus then went to the audience for their questions. Our guests are noted for their knowledge of the music and the musicians. and it showed. I hope you enjoy the give and take with the audience in this lively conversation.

Marcus Miller: This is going to be very, very cool because it's actually a Q&A and we're not going to wait till the end of the interview. We'll get started pretty early on. So, let's get these incredible musicians on stage. Give it up for John Clayton and Jeff Hamilton, y'all. There they are. Have a seat, gentlemen. So, how's everybody doing?

Jeff Hamilton: Feeling good.

Marcus Miller: They give they give Jeff they gave him um what was it? They switched your schedule, right? What was

Jeff Hamilton: No, I just got it wrong.

Marcus Miller: Oh, you just got it wrong.

John Clayton: Yeah.

Marcus Miller: All right. I was trying to give you an out.

Jeff Hamilton: No, no. I got to be honest. You know, as musicians, the highlight of our day is sitting at our instruments and playing.

Marcus Miller: Absolutely.

Jeff Hamilton: I don't play today. So, the highlight of my day is wine tasting this afternoon.

Marcus Miller: Wait a minute. This is not a highlight.

Jeff Hamilton: It is now.

Marcus Miller: Yeah, it is now. Is it true that you guys um is it true that you guys started the orchestra in 1985? Is that right?

John Clayton: Yeah, we began it then. Yeah, we we had talked about it when we were in college at Indiana University in ' 72.

Marcus Miller: Okay. So, I'm going to ask the first question. How do you keep a big band together? Quincy Jones gave me horror stories about keeping a big band together. He told me stories about being in Europe with the big band with the musicians with their wives and their infant children trying trying to book a gig so that we they'd have something to do the next day on the trains. Uh it seems like an incredibly daunting task to keep a big band together. So, uh how do you do it? How do you do it for 40 years?

John Clayton: Well, we spread out the the tasks. So, I was responsible for writing the charts for doing any kind of arranging and stuff. And um my brother Jeff knew all the people in Los Angeles, the people to call that God long together and played great. And you know, if you're going to call this guy, don't call this guy because he used to date his former wife. And you know, he knew all that stuff. And then Jeff,

Marcus Miller: that's real, ain't it?

John Clayton: Oh, it's definitely real.

Jeff Hamilton: And Jeff um handled all the finances, which means he didn't have a hell of a lot to do for a long time.

Marcus Miller: Wow. Okay. So, you guys basically acted as a team and delegated. Um, is it um was it uh uh difficult to because you talk about guys and their ex-wives? What about guys in the sections? Do you guys are you concerned about how uh one musician uh blends with another musician? For example, in the trumpet section?

John Clayton: Um no, because that that's what we would work on. Got it.

Jeff Hamilton: And and if you have the right people, they're there. So the first rehearsal was maybe the most important rehearsal. because uh the music had the people that we were calling and the band at that time we had in the trumpet section Snookie Young, Bobby Bryant, Oscar Basher, Clay Jenkins,

John Clayton: uh Iron Napus, um

Jeff Hamilton: uh Thurman Green, who else?

John Clayton: Thurman Green.

Jeff Hamilton: Thurman Green and George Bohannan, Maurice Spears, uh my brother played out lead alto, Bill Green, his former teacher, played second alto, you know. So it was like that. We had was it Was it Andy Simpkins?

John Clayton: Yeah. Rhythm section was Gerald Wiggins, Andy Simpkins, and Ron Eshtay for that first rehearsal.

Jeff Hamilton: For the first So that when you have people like that for the first rehearsal, then you understand if there's going to be a second rehearsal, the first rehearsal needs to be slamming.

John Clayton: Yeah. Yeah.

Marcus Miller: So, it was incumbent on me to make sure that the music was interesting enough for them to accept this. Exactly. Did um some of the names you named their prominent uh they were prominent studio musicians. I mean, they were doing sessions in LA. You know, there's a lot of recording sessions, movie score sessions. So, uh but they're jazz players.

John Clayton: That's right.

Marcus Miller: And so, it seemed I would imagine that they were really uh excited to uh have an opportunity to play in a big band.

John Clayton: Um I think they were I think they were excited about playing in our big band.

Marcus Miller: Okay.

John Clayton: Because there are a lot of in LA, as you probably know, there are a lot of quote reading bands and rehearsal bands and um it just sort of is a way to keep your chops dusted off and there isn't the kind of

Marcus Miller: Oh, I see.

John Clayton: familial,

Marcus Miller: right?

John Clayton: Love that you feel in our band. Um

Marcus Miller: Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know. So, there's a lot of you call them uh reading bands. Yeah. Where you get together and just play charts.

Jeff Hamilton: Yes. Yep. The union was full of be like four a day. Oh, I see. But also Bill Hullman's band, Bob Florence's band. I mean, Joe Roasano all these great bands, but we didn't want clean studio precision,

Marcus Miller: right?

Jeff Hamilton: Yes. The George Bohan, Earth, Wind, and Fire, Stevie Wonder, you know, they they were in the studio for certain things, but we didn't want crisp playing. We wanted their personality, much like uh Duke Ellington chose personalities for his band.

John Clayton: Yeah.

Jeff Hamilton: And then John would write for those personalities. And when people got off the band, we wouldn't play those anymore because they were written for them.

Marcus Miller: You guys got that? But you don't when they when they arranging um they write a trumpet part. It's not for a trumpet. They write it for the person who's playing the trumpet because every trumpet player has their own vibe. And it sounds like you guys didn't want is the right word? Sterile. You know, a lot of studio musicians, they play very precise, but there's not enough gravy in what they do. And you guys were looking for the gravy also, right?

John Clayton: The other thing that we were um we didn't really talk about but we felt very strongly about is that a lot of those reading bands uh they're they're not really integrated and and we that's something that we like I said we don't really talk about we both feel very strongly about it we wanted a rainbow colored band and we got that and and and um and we still have that it didn't really dawn on me until maybe I don't know a year later Terry Gibbs Dream Band called me to play and it was all white.

Jeff Hamilton: and Med Flory from Indiana, he's a character. We played one song and Med looked over across the room and he says, "So, Hammer, how's it feel to be in an all oay band, man?" And I said, "Pretty weird."

Marcus Miller: Well, you know, historically that was a big thing. I mean, a lot of band leaders who um had predominantly white bands, but they wanted to have some uh some uh brothers in there. They were like they had to fight like Benny Goodman had to fight to to have uh Charlie Christian, for example, in the band. It it was a big deal. So, um now we're in the 80s and you guys are the opposite. Listen, we don't want all black or all white band. We want to have uh an integrated band. And you're right, people don't talk about that, but it's real. All right, that's enough from me. Um we have we have we have a Roving microphone. Right.

Audience Member: We have a question right here. Yes. I love your record with the singer Ernie Andrews and I wonder what other singers you've had with the band that you really enjoy and what you look for in an arrangement that's different with a singer than just all band.

John Clayton: I think the the songs the the recordings we made with singers were were all singers that we really enjoy playing with. Uh I I can't think of anybody that we Well, I guess we can't say that in public, huh?

Marcus Miller: Well, there there were No, that's exactly what we want to hear, actually.

John Clayton: Yeah. No. Well, there there there were vocalists who kept wanting to sing with the band and we just knew it wouldn't work because you heard the band the other night. It's a powerful band. And there are names that, you know, who would come in and uh one in particular, we hit the first chord and they actually did this and turned around and faced the band and sang with the audience to their back. I mean that it's like they couldn't believe what they were hearing and it just didn't and they knew it didn't work. So that kind of has gone you know I mean several vocals of you know what maybe I shouldn't be in front of this band you know? But the ones who really knocked it out for me and I think we agree on this. Joe Williams

Jeff Hamilton: of course yeah Dee Bridgewwater right Cecile we were in Europe with her.

Marcus Miller: Oh wow.

Jeff Hamilton: Uh that's who sorry. Barbara Morrison, Barbara Morrison, Ernie Andrews, but for the most part it doesn't, you know, it doesn't fit. And with Diana Krall, you John as again arranged for the person that we're that we're playing for. So all that work, you're not going to arrange for Ernie Andrews like you are for Diana Krall. So obviously, so that's that's how that works.

Marcus Miller: So um for a lot of those singers, they'd heard of your band, but hearing the band from the audience and standing in front of that band is a totally different experience, isn't it? All right, we have another question back here.

Audience Member: So, uh, you talk about, uh, an integrated band, which I'm so poor. Um, but what about women in the band? I never see women in the band.

Jeff Hamilton: We have women. We've had women in our band. You know, the cool thing about one of the things I'm proud about the Clayton Hamilton Jazz Orchestra is, we don't fire anybody. Uh, you either leave on your own or you die. So, so you know, so it really is a family. And the women that we've had, we do have a currently a woman in the band. She's uh in Europe right now. She's European uh and uh she's there. So, we we you didn't see her at the concert. And in the past, we've also had women in in various sections in the band and they choose to leave. They you know, they have other uh opportunities that they're interested in. And we we're all But so no, I um I I appreciate the the observation, the question, but it's not my goal to um to bring in people for the sake of what they represent in terms of color or sex. We want an integrated band, but we never want to have that be the primary focus um in lie of of quality music. music, a quality musicians.

John Clayton: Yeah. I met her when she was in conservatory in Holland and we uh played the North Sea Festival and I and she was in shock after she heard the band live and she came in. She said, "I have to be in your band." And I said, "Well, then you will be if you work hard enough." We hired her because she's the best bass trombone player I've ever heard in my life.

Marcus Miller: She's so good. She's so good.

John Clayton: That's why she's in the band. So, she uh had a conflict in Copenhagen and couldn't do this. Cruz, but um she's we we love her. She's incredible. And yes, we have had and we don't really face any issues with that. Nobody.

Jeff Hamilton: No.

John Clayton: And we're we're always open to more u people people including whatever sex, whatever, however you define yourself, etc.

Jeff Hamilton: These stubborn guys just won't die, you know. So,

Marcus Miller: and with that, we'll move on to the next question. back here.

Jeff Hamilton: They just want to eat the mushrooms.

Audience Member: Hi. Uh loved the performance the other night. Uh we started off with a the a question about the challenges of a big band. How do they differ from 40 years ago to now because I'm sure there's lots of challenges now that are that are different. So could you describe?

John Clayton: Um it's different. It's it's different for I don't know, every generation. Um, when I was in Count Basy's band, we weren't doing the kind of um concerts and things that the Bassy Dan band did the year, the generation before. It was possible for them that back then to get on a Greyhound bus and tour the country and play concert halls and dances and things. By the time I joined the band, uh, it was pretty much concert halls. Basy was big enough of a name that he did didn't have to work six days a week and and live on the bus. So there was more flying involved. We weren't on a bus ride more than 4 hours because Mr. Bassy was, you know, in up in the age, etc. So um those were the challenges that they had to deal with in booking the band when I I was in the band. Now pretty much nobody can get on a Greyhound bus and tour the country. However, there do exist other possibilities. Um, now there are concert halls in every state in in the US that have music series and most of those music music series try to vary the kind of music that that they're that they're booking which also includes jazz depending on their budget and whether or not they're interested in it. Those are opportunities for big bands. So, it's not unusual for a um a Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra to fly to and do one concert. You know, that may not have happened back, you know, what 50 years ago for a big band, but it's you. So, there are other opportunities. Not saying it's easy. Just saying that we have to each at each sort of juncture look at what is possible uh for big band. So, um I would factor that into the mix. Is it easy? I don't know. I I don't I don't kind of I kind of don't categorize things as an easy easy or hard. It's just if you want it just like Ulan Juliana Gal, you know, if she wanted to play in our band, she was going to find a way. If we want to play with our big band, we're going to find a way. That's I don't know if that's just my California attitude, but uh uh that's kind of the reality, I think.

Jeff Hamilton: Well, you know, 40 years ago wasn't really a piece of cake like it was in the 40s when the big band music was the popular music. That's all you heard on the radio. So in ' 85, popular music was not big band music. So all these different types of big bands were coming out. More creative writing that wasn't made for dancing, was made for sitting down and listening. So like John said, each generation kind of changes within what a big band is. And while I'm on it, you know, everybody says, "Oh, he's a big band drummer. Oh, he's a small group drummer." There is not one way to play in a big band because of all the arrangers have the the band in mind to write for. So in Paul Whiteitman's band, you don't play in that band like you'd play in Maria Schneider's band. So you you know that that's that's the a vast uh spectrum of of big band music. So the rehearsal bands we talked about a lot of Toshi Koakoshi Lutakan in LA that was considered a rehearsal band because they didn't work that much. But then they'd go on tour for three days. San Francisco, Salt Lake City, right? and then come back. So most of their playing was in the union in a rehearsal. So it it 85 was not not really a piece of cake that started a big band either. But um we also have we take pride in not paying our band $25 to play. And a lot of bands have to survive by doing that. And when you've got Snookie Young, what the greatest lead trumpet player ever in your band, you want to honor that and honor what he's been through. and not give him $25. So we pay our our band really well. And so we wait for the concerts. We wait for the maybe we'll have one every three months, but it's a big payday. Then we were in residence at the Hollywood Bowl for three years and we were like the the house band who we would we hate I hate that we weren't the house band. We were the Clayton Hamilton Jazz Orchestra. We were the guest and so people would come out and um uh Chucho reminded me of that the other night. He was a guest and uh Oscar Peterson and I mean it was just it was a great thing while it was going the powers that be decided it wasn't a good thing. So that's where the that's where the the not popular music is uh is taking a hit from from people who are deciding making these decisions.

John Clayton: Yeah. If you really want it, you're going to find a way to make it happen. And that's that's the bottom line. I think

Marcus Miller: we have a question back here.

Audience Member: Yes. How do you decide what tune to play for particular gig and how much input do the band members have in that decision?

John Clayton: Um well, first of all, I um we decide what we want to play based on what we're feeling and what we want to play. Uh we don't play, I know it sounds shocking, we don't play for an audience. We play for the sake of the music and and making the music with our friends and we present that to an audience because if you I've seen people who put the audience's desires uh in front of their own and the next thing you know they end up becoming frustrated because they're just trying so hard to quote please the audience and the audience is not dumb they're going to feel if you play a song that you're really not into you know they're going to feel that. So audiences are beautifully clean slates. It's like, okay, we're here. What you got for us? And we I love taking advantage of, well, here's something that's brand new that you've never heard. And and if somebody makes a request, uh, would you play this song? Then I'll think about it. We'll think about it and we'll go, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. You know, but then if we're thinking, ah, not really feeling that, then we won't do it. So, we kind of choose the songs that we would like to play and present. to the audiences and it's not in a selfish way. We we think that if we're playing music that makes us happy and the band is happy and you saw the faces on the band. Nobody's staring down into the music while somebody else is soloing, everybody's encouraging everybody because it's everybody's happy with the choices of music that we played. And it's like a family where if your family's getting along, everybody around you, if you go out to dinner, everybody's going to feel that. So if we're happy with what we're playing and what we selected, that that goes to the audience and And we get that back cuz you're happy with what we're playing. So it's not like I'm going to play what I want to and I don't care who likes it. It's not that. Well, maybe a little. You were going to say something, Mark.

Marcus Miller: That's a that's a huge artistic challenge for a lot of artists. Um because you know after you've done a few recordings, certain songs, certain pieces stick out and they become more popular and you kind of in the back of your head know, well, if we play this, it's going to be an easy we win, right? And to to stay determined to present new music, things that interest you, that is a challenge for a lot of artists. I've seen artists look out into the audience before the show and go and change the whole set list, you know, because, oh man, they're a lot younger than I thought they were going to be. They're a lot older than I thought they were going to be. They're a lot blacker, a lot whiter. I mean, these things are real. And a lot of people succumb to that kind of temptation. But I've noticed that about you guys. like, hey, we're going to do something and if it feels good to us, like you said, and and everyone on the stage is into it. You can draw people in and they feel they feel like they've benefited from that. So,

Jeff Hamilton: I remember when um you know, just one small example, uh Diana Krall had a quasi hit back in the day called Peel Me a Grape.

Marcus Miller: Yeah.

Jeff Hamilton: And we witnessed her go through, we played it every night, da da da da. At some point after years, she just kind of went, I'm really So happy that people like that song, but really got to move on, you know, and

Marcus Miller: I'm out of grapes. No more grapes. Yeah.

Jeff Hamilton: Yeah. So, just imagine that couple that's going, "Ah, God, we're going to see Diana Krall." You know, they have to buy the tickets, arrange parking, get the babysitter, you know, do all that stuff, get to the hall. God, they're on the way. They're going, "I hope she does my favorite song, Peel Me." Grape. They go to the concert. She does the concert. At the end, they're going home. Wow. Ah, well, she didn't do my favorite song, but did you hear that new thing? She did one that you know what I mean?

Marcus Miller: That's what you want.

Jeff Hamilton: Audiences, they're so beautifully open that I think to now

Marcus Miller: I understand. Then there's Earth, Wind, and Fire. That's right. And then there's, you know, whoever the list of other people that, you know, they kind of have to do it.

Jeff Hamilton: Yeah.

Marcus Miller: In the jazz world, we I think we have a little more freedom. You remember um Bobby McFaren? And Bobby, you know, Bobby is just incredibly talented. incredibly creative. So, one day he's in the studio and he's joking around and he put on his West Indian accent and said, "Don't worry, be happy, kind of like as a a goof almost, like just a, you know, humorous thing." And the thing became a number one hit. And Bobby was like, "You all must be crazy if you think I'm going to sing that song for the rest of my life?" You know, and he would announce early on, listen, I'm coming to Cleveland. I'm not singing Don't worry, be happy. Okay. So, listen to it on in your car on the way to the show or whatever. But a lot of people have gotten other, like you said, there are other artists who are happy to play their hit. They feel blessed that they were actually able to have a hit and they play it. But that's a thing that a lot of musicians go through.

Audience Member: We have a question here. Hi, I'm just in awe of you guys. You were so great last night, too, Mr. Hamilton. But, um, I was wondering when you see a big band in person. I mean, it's so overwhelming and I mean, it's for me it's almost spiritual and it's like I'm wondering if if you bring this into schools or with you as a band work with young people. I know individually you do different things, but as your band, your big band, just to expose them to this kind of music, it's just so in person, I think it's so different from hearing it where they probably do in the background of a movie or something. So, you're wondering about our connection to young people?

John Clayton: Well, we all teach. I mean, we we give workshops. We uh have private students. I was at USC for 21 years. I mean, we all pass it on. And it stems for me personally from the great Ray Brown uh helping me when I was uh young, when I was 16. years old. I took this course that he taught called Workshop and jazz bass at UCLA and it and followed him thereafter and uh got a lot of guidance from him and at some point I was thanking him for all the doors he was opening for me. And I said, "You must be tired of me always saying thank you to to you. You do so much for me." And he said, "No, I'm doing this for you cuz somebody did it for me and you're going to do it for somebody else further down the line." And when I share that with students and I tell them, "And you're going to do it for somebody else further down the line and if you don't, I'll break your Chinese cuz that's the rule. So, yes, we do do a lot of that.

Jeff Hamilton: Yeah. And and we actually had a a CHJO youth orchestra for about three years in Los Angeles. And um one of the members is Michael Boué's main arranger now.

Marcus Miller: Oh wow.

Jeff Hamilton: Um uh Kevin Caner who's been on the ship played drums in it. Uh Josh Nelson was in I mean people who have gone on to have music careers. We couldn't keep it going because we got into this music play the music with the people we wanted to play with. And the touring schedule unfortunately got into the way of not being able to have a teaching schedule or a a regular schedule to to help young musicians or do that particular youth orchestra. But my trio goes around, John and Jeffrey and I went around to a few universities and they just bring the three leaders in and plop us in the middle of the band and um it it's really a great experience for everybody. We enjoy it, they enjoy it and they learn how our phrasing is and what we can bring to the music and and you you see the light bulb go on immediately. Uh I didn't grow up wanting to teach. So that's that's my main uh issue with not spending more time with young people or students, but the interested ones find a way to talk to me about it and then I'll give you all the time I can within that hole in the tour schedule. So yeah, we we're like John said, people helped us out. So we're we return the favor and there are some people on the boat that I've helped out that are that are doing really well and I'm I'm proud of that. I'm proud of them. Diana Krall the other night. Met her when she was 19 at a jazz camp and introduced her to John and Ray Brown and I was just looking at her while she was playing and she we had a lot of eye contact which more than we usually do and just a lot of grinning going on if you noticed and I just kept reflecting back to when she was 19 and playing the hell out of the piano. She didn't even sing when I met her. Wanted to be a jazz piano player and to sort of to to watch. I told her after this, I said, "I'm so proud of you. I just look at you. I mean, you know, how old are we now? But I'm just so proud of you of what what you've become from wanting to be a a piano jazz piano player at a camp to what you're doing now." So, that's probably the biggest uh success story of spending time with a student and and watching them do well.

John Clayton: And and others that are on the ship here, Benny Back, I knew met him when he was 16 years old. Sullivan Fortner, uh, of course, John Hamer was one, you know, odd this. So, there's a a healthy kind of uh list that makes us proud of musicians.

Marcus Miller: We have a question here.

Audience Member: Okay. Okay. U the the reason I'm asking this question, Jeff, is that I also play in a small combo jazz group and also play in a couple of big bands. And uh at one point in time, I heard that Christian McBride said to Ulissiz Jr., who's they both been on this cruise a lot u but He said to him, "If you're the big band, you don't have nearly as much room as you do in your combo because there's 18 people in that band and you know, you got to let leave a lot of space for them. You combo you can get away with." I don't think Jeff plays any differently in this combo than he does in a big band because it's always amazing. So, I just wanted to hear your feedback about that.

Jeff Hamilton: Well, your observation is correct. U Mel Lewis, who's a huge mentor of mine, told me that you don't you don't have to change for the group. You you've Serve the music for the number of people you're playing with. Be yourself. They hired you. They ask for your beat. They ask for what you can offer to the band. So confident about your beat. Feels good. You offer it to everybody in the band. And some will choose maybe not to come in, but you'll adjust a little to what you need to to make it work for the sake of the music. Not dig your heels in and play rim shots and crashes and invite them into what you do. And and that works. I don't overplay. I don't I don't I'm not I I don't bang, you know. I'm I'm still playing drums within what I do and I invite people into what I do in whether it's three people or Lo Shiffren in an orchestra that I did. So, um just serve the music. Now, logistically on the band stand, uh I would agree with Christian on that point as far as the baritone player who's the farthest away from me has to hear exactly what I'm doing. But They also have to trust me, not tap tap their foot and have their head in the music and play it because it's right. They've got to hear what I'm handing them. I'm setting them up and then getting out of the way. Sometimes I'll play the figure, sometimes I won't, but I'll I'll play the phrasing that they that's coming up with what they're going to play and then hand it to them if they're listening. And there have been discussions um new members in the band loves to tell this story. He says, I said, "Let's go have dinner, lead trumpet player and drummer. You know, we need to we need to pair up. Let's He's great. He was great when he came in, but he was a little early on a lot of the entrances because he's Snookie Young's sitting next to me. Bobby Bryant, you know, so he's trying to like, man, I've got to be the lead player in the band." So, he took I took him out to dinner. We're in Italy in Peruia, the Umbria Festival. And I said, you know, you're doing a great job and you're listening, but just trust me. And he loves to tell that story is like that's it trusting everybody in the band and you know the count off the that it's it's a lot of trust in in any organization and musically. So I think that that's the big that's what I'm thinking when I'm when I just I'll hand it to you if you let me. I can I can help you sound like a million dollars if you let me.

Marcus Miller: I heard that um each big band has their own lilt their own swing that uh maybe it's from spending so much time on the bus together. or eating the same food. But um I'm realizing that this probably uh having conversations like that add to that. Also, if you play in the bassy band, there's a certain swing that that's really famous amongst musicians. And it probably has to do with conversations and saying, "Look, this is how we do it here. Just take it easy. Trust the drummer. Trust the process." That always fascinated me.

John Clayton: The other thing I want to add to what Jeff was just saying, uh, which audiences don't realize uh is that when Jeff plays he gets a sound that's not loud but it's full and that's something that young people don't I'm always trying to tell people again and you know just a I can count on one hand the drummers that that can do that in my opinion um and I and so I I'm trying to encourage so many young people to not just buy the record you know, if be in the space so you can hear and feel the sound uh that he gets from his instrument and and and once they hear that and once other musicians in the big band hear that then they understand they don't have to really listen for the drummer who may not have been down the same paths that right Jeff has been down so they really don't know about so they bring their experience obviously which may be steeped in smaller group playing to the big band and they play like themselves. And now that baritone player is having a hard time hearing the you know in our band we we we have them but we really never use monitors.

Marcus Miller: Monitors are those speakers on the floor that allow the musicians to hear what the other musicians are doing more clearly. But you guys don't use it that much.

John Clayton: No. And even though you have that distance between the drums and the baritone in our band as Jeff was saying you know he's got got to communicate his sound to reach over there without being loud or inappropriate. So, wow. Anyway,

Jeff Hamilton: Philly Joe Jones told me the lesson I had with him 75. He said, "If if I well because he kept asking me to challenge Monty and John Monty Alexander in the trio." I said, "Monty doesn't want me to play loud." He said, "I didn't say anything about playing louder, right? Just let him know you're there. You're being a doormat. Don't let him walk on you."

Marcus Miller: Wow.

Jeff Hamilton: And and I said, "Well, what what if what if it's getting too loud?" He said, "As long, the rule is if you can hear every body acoustically as close as you get to acoustically in the on the band stand then you're not too loud."

Marcus Miller: Okay. Now I went to hear Philly Joe Jones.

Jeff Hamilton: Uhhuh.

Marcus Miller: It did get a little loud every once in a while, you know.

Jeff Hamilton: Okay. Well, that's another discussion.

Marcus Miller: That's another discussion.

Jeff Hamilton: I didn't say he did what he said.

Marcus Miller: I mean, you know, recordings are amazing because it allows our music to travel all over the world and and affect people. But um particular ally for a big band, listening to a recording of a big band, no matter how great it is, and being in front or being inside a big band. Those are two completely different experiences, right?

Jeff Hamilton: One other thing to tag on his question is that I was a first of all Jean Krupa wannabe and then all my colleagues foolishly said, "You need to listen to Buddy Rich because Jean's old hat." I said, "Oh, wow. Well, okay." You know, so I went to Buddy at like uh 13, 14, you know, from Jean when I was eight. And I learned all the charts, played the records. Yeah. But I didn't see Buddy at that time. So I'm heard I'm hearing rim shots and crashes and so stuff that stuck out. That stuck out. So the college I thought that's what you had to do at a big band. So college band Quaker College in my hometown, Richmond, Indiana, Erland College didn't have any jazz drummers in the Quaker school. Go figure. So So the band director comes over to the my high school band director and he says, "Do you have anybody wants to play big band?" And he said, "Take this kid out of my hair. I don't know anything about jazz. He wants me to start a band. I don't know anything about t. So, at 15, I'm in the I'm in the the Early College Jazz Band." It was the best and worst thing that could happen. It was all Buddy Rich charts.

Marcus Miller: Oh, wow.

Jeff Hamilton: I didn't even open the book.

Marcus Miller: So, you didn't have to?

Jeff Hamilton: No. I had to memorize some records. So, the 22-year-old lead trumpet player comes over to me at the end of the rehearsal and he says, "So, you sound good, kid, for 15." And I said, "Oh, thanks."

Marcus Miller: Right. Right.

Jeff Hamilton: I said, "But do you realize how many rim shots you're hitting?" I said, "No. He said, 'Every time you want to bring us in or play the figure with us, you're hitting rim shots and crashing symbols." Do you know what that's like playing with you? I said, "Really?" No. And he said, "I feel like you're yelling at me. I just want to play music with you." He turned around and walked away. And to this day, I never abuse a band.

Marcus Miller: Yeah.

Jeff Hamilton: I don't dig my heels in and get mad and start crashing at We're all human beings. We just We We know I got to find another way to maybe get to what I am searching for to help the band without doing this, right? So that but that stuck with me. That's that's a good thing to keep in mind as a drummer for everybody for for all musicians, human beings.

Marcus Miller: By the way, it's as we get I've to your point about the volume thing. Um I've noticed that um uh as we all get older, we experience some hearing loss and

Jeff Hamilton: Right.

Marcus Miller: And the result of that in so many of my heroes and I can name names because many of them passed on but as Ray Brown got older you know his volume on his amplifier went up as Milt Hinton got older his volume on it you know and and the same thing just down the line yeah so it's kind of a challenge uh for because you want to be able to hear yourself and if you're experiencing hearing loss next thing you know

Jeff Hamilton: little by little Turn that knob up a little bit.

Marcus Miller: Exactly. So, yeah, it's it's a challenge.

Jeff Hamilton: I got some names also. Yeah. And I'm hoping mine isn't in there.

Marcus Miller: Do we have time for one more last question back here?

Audience Member: Yeah, we have. One more, please. Thanks very much, guys. Very informative uh and brilliant performance last night. I've been a fan of the band for quite a while. Used to play it on a radio show uh in BBC. Um but I think one of my big questions is you've been arranging for the band for 40 years now. Um it still sounds very contemporary. It still sounds like something that you want to go and hear uh in terms of any of the big jazz orchestras that are around. But obviously the style of voicings and arranging for voicings especially in horns hunts horns is has changed so much over the decades and uh the polifany is kind of disappearing slightly. You've got more unisoned splits drop two drop four voicings. Do you have anything that you would want to share or is it a secret uh as to why we have the sound of the band as a result of the arranging styles that you use?

Marcus Miller: It's the last question, but it's a hell of a question.

John Clayton: Dig in here. Um, first of all, I I try to to expand my writing vocab vabulary and pallet by not relying on myself. I go to to uh I go to different resources to get more vocabulary, to get more colors, to get more ideas, to get, you know, so if I'm on a desert island, then I'm just I'm stuck with my vocabulary. But if I listen to you and your band and and listen to her and her band, then now I'm hearing things that I hadn't thought of. And I'll, you know, I'll steal Not going to borrow. I'm going to steal cuz I ain't giving it back.

Marcus Miller: No, you're just influenced by

John Clayton: Oh, thank you. Thanks. See, my man, he's such a diplomat. You must live in Los Angeles. So, so I find that that that's a big one for me. Um, is finding music to inspire me that I can also draw from. Um, I there's a fine line between a style and a rut and you know I don't want to be nobody wants to be in a rut. So I just keep looking for those different things going on in styles and also if you you're mentioning a drop two or drop four voicing you know which is a an an arrangers composers arrange arrangers term technique for writing is a certain way uh if you write from rules it sounds like you're writing from rules so I take in the rules. I learn the rules, but then I find opportunities to to not use them.

Jeff Hamilton: And it's predictable for the people in the band if that happens. It's like, oh, there's the drop. Okay. And then the drummer does this. Okay. Now, what are we going to do? But John, he said he won't he won't allow that to happen. Uh, we hear people within the band. Oscar Brashier brought a tune in that John said, "I want to I want to arrange this for you. It's your tune, but we need to play this for you." And Oscar passed or he left the band first. And we never played it again, you know. So that's that you don't fall in that rut if you don't play it again, you know. So, but it's a fresh arrangement. We could play the arrangement, but it's not right for for anybody else but Oscar. So, the other thing for Rangers, and we've talked about this, and I actually pointed out to Bill Hullman, and he went, "Hm, really?" Uh, we were in Cologne with the WDR band. I was uh playing drums for Bill as a guest and I said, "Is there anything that you're not getting from me that I can help out with the band. And he talked about a shout chorus. You know, just think about letter C. Don't think about the shout chorus. And just keep that in your head. Okay." I said, you know, all I have to do is think about Mel Lewis when I play your music. I'm not trying to be him, but his style of loose relaxation. You've got a leg legato quarter note. It's not da da da da da da da. It's d you're laying out there for the band. And I said, you have him in mind when you write, don't you? Because if I try to do Buddy Rich or anything else, it doesn't work. You have to do that rubba Mel Lewis film.

John Clayton: Right. Right. Right.

Jeff Hamilton: And he goes, "Hm, I guess you're right." I said, "Bob Florence had Nick Crollly, Duke Ellington had Sunny Greer at the beginning, then Sam Woodard and Louisie Bellson." So if if you have the musicians in mind that you're writing, like we mentioned before, that keeps you out of the rut, but you also have your gravy, you know, you mentioned before that you can you can put in with these arrangements to make a I think that's really John's sound when he when he arranges. He has all of that in mind.

Marcus Miller: Man, I could do this for another hour, but we have to release everyone to all the wonderful things that are going to happen today on the ship. So, can we hear it one more time for Jeff and John Clayton, Jeff Hamilton? Thank you. Thank you guys. All right, we've seen you guys around the ship.

Lee Mergner: Wow. It's crazy when you realize that John and Jeff have known each other for more than 50 years and they still get along famously. Both will be sailing on the Jazz Cruise departing for the Caribbean from Fort Lauderdale on January 27th. The cruise features more than 100 artists and 200 hours of music. Headliners include Katherine Russell, Ron Carter, Pakito de Rivera, Chucho Valdez, Curt Elling, Anat Cohen, Monty Alexander, Matthew Whitaker, Janice Seagull, John Pitzerelli, Veronica Swift, and I'm running out of breath. It really is straight ahead jazz heaven and there are just a few cabins left. So learn more at thejazzcruise.com. Our theme music is by Marcus from his song High Life on his album Aphrodesia. And thank you to uh Scott the sound engineer there in the sky lounge for capturing this and other talks from the journey of jazz cruise. And thanks to Irene who calls herself the mic girl and who runs around the room getting questions from the audience which were really important with this one. Don't forget to subscribe to Jazz Cruises Conversations on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and you can listen any of our back catalog of more than 100 interviews from our sailings. Thanks for listening.