#104: Sullivan Fortner with Lee Mergner

This episode captures a coffee talk session from the recent Journey of Jazz Cruise, where host Lee Mergner interviews the great pianist Sullivan Fortner ("Sully"). Since Fortner does not enjoy talking about himself, the interview uses prompts featuring names of influential people in his life. Fortner, an adept mimic and great storyteller, shared profound lessons from his mentors and even played the piano for the audience in the mode of Oscar Peterson.

Key Takeaways

• Musical Beginnings: Fortner's mother was his first music teacher. He and his two younger sisters were "weaned on gospel music" and learned ear training by singing in three-part harmony. His father, who played trumpet in high school, taught him about responsibility.
• A Stern Mentor: Fortner attended the New Orleans Center for Creative Arts (NOCCA). During a lesson with Ellis Marsalis, after playing "Lush Life" and making a mistake, Marsalis retrieved the sheet music, threw the chart in his face, and asked, "Any questions," ending the lesson.
• The Oberlin Shift: Fortner studied at Oberlin Conservatory of Music in Ohio. He describes the food as a "culture shock" but the experience as the best thing he could have done, as he "wasn't ready for place like New York". He had to "pretty much relearn how to play the piano" in Ohio. His teacher, Dan Wall, was his "musical father".
• Learning from Masters:
  • Jason Moran instructed him to focus on stride, boogie woogie, rag time, and solo piano, rather than the more common influences of Herbie Hancock or Keith Jarrett.
  • Barry Harris's workshop, which he attended every Tuesday, was held in the Baroness Pannonica's old house. Fortner recounts the story of receiving his first and only 30-minute lesson from Harris after playing a Thelonious Monk tune on Thelonious Monk's piano (which Harris refused to touch).
• Seven Years with Roy Hargrove: Fortner spent seven years in Roy Hargrove's band, describing the experience as a "doctor's diploma and road chops". He witnessed Hargrove's dedication despite intense physical struggles, including an incident in Italy where a "geyser of blood" shot out of Hargrove's arm during a gig, yet Roy continued to play.
• Vocal Collaborations: He met Samara Joy as a scared freshman at Barry Harris's class and contributed to her Grammy-winning holiday album. He has played with Cécile McLorin Salvant for 10 years. Salvant's repertoire is wide, including music from 500 BC and songs sung in five languages. He described Dee Dee Bridgewater as "fearless" and a "triple quadruple threat".
• The Oscar Peterson Challenge: Fortner participated in a tour playing Oscar Peterson's music with John Clayton and Jeff Hamilton, noting that Oscar's playing was "demanding," "relentless," and "very complicated and complex".
• Awards and Albums: Fortner's albums include the Grammy-nominated Solo Game (the one with the upside-down cover) and Southern Nights. He recently received the inaugural Larry J. Bell Jazz Artist Award ($300,000 over four years).

Host and Gue

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Aphrodesia on Blue Note.

Transcript

Jazz Cruises Conversations: Episode 104 – Sullivan Fortner with Lee Mergner

Lee Mergner (Host): Hi, welcome to Jazz Cruis's Conversations. I'm your host, Lee Mergner. Well, I'm also the host of this conversation from the recent Journey of Jazz Cruise. For one of our coffee talk sessions held in the rendevous lounge in the morning, I interviewed the great pianist Sullivan Fortner about his life and his music. I knew that Sully, as we all call him, does not like to talk about himself. So, instead of asking him the usual questions, I simply gave him prompts with the names of various people in his life. And he took right to it, starting with his parents, moving on to Marcelis, Fred Hirs, Roy Harrove, Dee Bridgewwater, and many others. As you'll hear, Sully is not only a great storyteller, but an adept mimic, able to do the voices of so many people and a musical mimic as well. In response to a prompt about Oscar Peterson, he even played the piano for us in the mode of Oscar. I hope you enjoy the conversation and the music.

Lee Mergner (Host): Good morning.

Sullivan Fortner: Morning.

Lee Mergner (Host): I was very uh Uh not too surprised that uh the late night set was by Sullivan Forner last night and then on the schedule it's like okay coffee talk. You have your coffee. Please welcome Sullivan Fort.

Well normally we do sort of what we call cradle to grave kind of interview of like when you were a kid blah blah blah blah. But I know Sullivan does not necessarily love to talk about himself. So uh I've taken a different approach and that is to talk about people in his life and we'll start with your parents. Uh that's a pretty easy one because it but no but they were really important to you and they still are. Uh yeah yeah.

Sullivan Fortner: Next question is... it's funny they um they were here on the January cruise and they pretty much took over the ship. They did. It's kind of they were everywhere. It's kind of funny, man. Um No, they were they they're very very um they're both very very um giving people um to me and my sisters. Um my mom who was basically my first music teacher um me and my sister's first music. So I have two baby sisters and uh they both sing and um my mom used to kind we we were weaned on gospel music. That was kind of like our conservatory of music being in to church and um my mom used to play these ear training tests on us. So she would put on a song and then she would be like okay after like the first hearing she'd be like okay Sullivan what was the alto line then I was like okay so I had to remember the song and we would have to do she okay so all right she'll ask my baby sister what's the tenor line and she would have to sing it and say okay so on the way home we would sing hit in three-part harmony. That was kind of how we learned to hear, you know, and um yeah, my beginnings of playing piano was I just wanted to play for my mom, you know. I didn't want to I didn't want to play jazz. I didn't know anything about jazz in there. I just wanted to play for my mom and her sisters and brothers. And that turned into this.

Lee Mergner (Host): You can still go back.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah. And uh my dad, of course, you know, he's not he wasn't musical even though he He had some he did play trumpet in high school, but he was mainly into sports and stuff. But um my dad was just responsibility, you know, be a responsible be a responsible man. Be a man of your word. Um and um he kind of taught me a lot about just being a human being in the world, you know. So yeah, those are my parents.

Lee Mergner (Host): Now, uh you uh there's a great uh uh education program, music education. It's uh just get it wrong. New Orleans uh NOC...

Sullivan Fortner: Oh, no. No.

Lee Mergner (Host): Uh New Orleans Center for Creative Arts. Who Who were your teachers there?

Sullivan Fortner: Let's see. Um there was a guy by the name of Clyde Kerr Jr. Um who was the um he played trumpet and uh he used to play with Allan Tucson among other people. Um it was fun. Nick's um said every time he uh every time he got the residual check from Lady Malot, he came to school, he was excited. He was like mailbox money. I got paid today, you know. But no, um he was a great educator. There's a lot of uh great musicians that he taught. Um some of you you probably heard of the Nicholas Payton um uh formerly Christian Scott now. Uh, Chief Atundua. I I can never remember that, but that's okay. For me, to me, he'll always be Christian Scott. Uh, Trump, Troy Trumbone, Shorty Andrews, uh, Irvin Mayfield. Um, I mean, on and on and on and on. Yeah.

Lee Mergner (Host): Yeah. Now, was uh, uh, you have a great story about because people always ask you about Alice Marcelis, the great uh, uh, you know, uh patriarch of of New Orleans music there. And you had a couple lessons sort of with him.

Sullivan Fortner: I had I remember one lesson in particular. This the first lesson I had with him. Um I I rang the doorbell of the house and this nurse answers the door and I'm like, "Okay, am I in the right house?" And this lady yells from the back. She's like, "What do you want?" And I said, "This I'm Sullivan. I'm here for the for a lesson with Mr. Marcel." It's all right. Well, then go out. Yeah. Damn it. Like, okay. This turns out to be Dolores Marcelis, the mother, right? She's yelling from the back of the house for me to go upstairs. So, anyway, I go and Ellis is there. She was like, you know, what do you want to play? So, I played Lush Life. I made a mistake and played Lush Life for him. And halfway through the verse. He goes into the cabinet. He gets the sheet music out. He finds it. And after after the thing's over, he throws the chart in my face. And he says, "Any questions." And that was the end of the lesson. That was the end of the lesson. Yeah. It's very very uh very very special kind of teacher he was. Yeah. Uh-huh. I've only had maybe like a handful of lessons with him, but a few runins other than that, you know? Um and um just just his whole being just represented dad, you know what I mean? It was just it just represented that. Just that hard, stern, but still caring, you know?

Lee Mergner (Host): Alan Tusant Tusant.

Sullivan Fortner: Um Allan Tusant, of course, everyone knows him as the, you know, one of the great writers and p of, you know, of of New Orleans heritage and culture. I had I was this close to meeting him. Um, we were supposed to have done a gig, me and Cecil were supposed to have done a gig opposite him in London, maybe about a month or so before he passed. Um, no, maybe a month after, I'm sorry, a month after he passed. He, you know, was it was it was very, very strange. But, um, no, it was really, really, I wish I had the opportunity to meet him, but um, just growing up in New Orleans, You just hear all those songs.

Lee Mergner (Host): Yeah. Professor Longair uh tradition.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, he's a long, you know, for me, he's a he's a part of that lineage, you know, James Booker and, you know, um the Professor Longair. Even going down to Devel Crawford and John Batist, we were all kind of like a part of that line of just great musicians and great pianists. Yeah. From New Orleans.

Lee Mergner (Host): And you named your record, one of your records, of course, after the tune Southern Nights.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah, that had nothing to do with that song or Allan. The album has absolutely nothing to do with Allan.

Lee Mergner (Host): He still wants a check for that. His family, I think.

Sullivan Fortner: I guess. So, yeah.

Lee Mergner (Host): Yeah. Well, you came to New York and you studied with a lot of great piano players. Uh, let's talk about a few of them. Uh, Jason Moran.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah. Um, so Jason said, my first lesson with Jason, he says, "Okay, when you come in this room. Leave that Oscar. I'm sorry, Kelly. He said, "Leave that Oscar Peterson. Leave that Leave that Herby Hancock chick career Keith Jared s*** outside. We're going to have open hands in here. We're going to be dealing with stride piano. We're going to be dealing with boogie woogie piano. We're going to be dealing with rag time. And we're going to be dealing with people that are kind of coming out of that spectrum going towards the avant guard. So people like Andrew Hill, people like uh Jackie Bayard, people like Wuhal Richard Abrams, you know. So he kind of opened up my playing uh to those people. And you know, before him, um I hadn't really done much solo piano playing. So he kind of introduced me to, you know, the possibility is of like just really embracing the art of solo piano playing, you know, and you I we skipped the teacher. So, I went to Oberlin Conservatory of Music in Ohio and I studied with a guy by the name of Dan Wall and Dan Wall is um known more so as an organist. Um used to play with uh John Abber's band and uh but just uh just a brilliant and pianist and kind of it's pretty much my musical father. You know, he's he's the reason why I'm playing music, playing jazz right now. I told him, I said, "Man, I don't think I can do this." He said, "You can definitely do it. You can do it. You can do it. You need to do it." I'm like, "Okay, I guess I have to. I guess I have to. At least one person believes in me."

Lee Mergner (Host): Well, what was that like being in Overland coming from New Orleans? You know, I mean, my daughter uh went there to visit for a visit in October. She says it was so cold.

Sullivan Fortner: It was freezing. It's the first time I had seen snow. So, I I pretty much left class mid lecture. I said, "I'm sorry, man. I got to see this. This is unbelievable." Um, but it was definitely a culture shock for me because, you know, first of all, the food in Ohio is not at all like the food I grew up with in New Orleans. You know what I mean? We add seasoning on our food. I mean, eventually I've met people say, "Oh, yeah, baby. We come over to the house. We going to take you. We going to get you some good stuff." So, I had some had some good fish over there. But, no, it wasn't it wasn't at all what I grew up with. Um, but the experience of going to the school was probably the best thing that I could have done. I wasn't ready for place like New York. Um, New York was too busy. I would have gotten swallowed up. I didn't, you know, I wasn't in the right stable state of mind to be able to do that. And I needed to be at a place where I could practice and just literally be in the boondocks in the middle of the corn fields and just work scales. I had to I had to pretty much relearn how to play the piano when I got to Ohio. And um I'm grateful for my teachers um Billy Hart, Gary Barts, Marcus Belgrave. I mean just...

Lee Mergner (Host): it was one of those programs that brought in a lot of great jazz musicians. Sort of what do they call that as u what is that called adjunct so they pop in for a week or pop in?

Sullivan Fortner: These people weren't adjunct they came they were there every... oh they were there a lot. They were there. I used to love story time. That was my favorite. Gary Barts for the stories with miles and you know listening to Marcus tell stories about Ray Charles. I said man what was the one thing that people didn't people wouldn't know about Ray Charles? He said he was a hell of a auto mechanic. Usually it's chess. People always talk about it. What a great chess player. A great chess player apparently. Yeah. But the thing that killed me was the auto mechanic thing. Said the bus wasn't working and he he went underneath the bus and that that s*** started working. It was great, man. There was such so many great memories of that school, man.

Lee Mergner (Host): Another uh teacher that you had in New York, I I believe, is Fred Hirs. Is that correct?

Sullivan Fortner: That's Very Jason and Fred are very very different pianists. They are. They're very different pianists, but they both come from the same route, which is Jackie Bayart. Um, incidentally, um, in two weeks, Fred and I are going to be doing a couple of duo concerts in Europe. Um, he's turning 70 this year and, um, he...

Lee Mergner (Host): playing with hoops.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, no, it's cool, man. Um, yeah, he's Definitely. Um I came to him in a very very interesting point. I'd just finished Manhattan school and um I felt like I needed another direction in the piano playing, you know, just an understanding of the certain technical things that I was having issues with and just body relationship to the piano. He really made me aware of of a lot of things that was really cool. So yeah, and you know, he produced my last my my first solo album which was really really cool. to have him a part of that.

Lee Mergner (Host): Uh let's talk about uh Barry Harris.

Sullivan Fortner: Um what could I say about Barry?

Lee Mergner (Host): Um did you do did you go to his workshop?

Sullivan Fortner: I went every Tuesday. Oh. From I went every Tuesday from when I started going in 2011 20 two.

Lee Mergner (Host): Barry Harris had a thing. What do they call it? Barry Harris workshop.

Sullivan Fortner: Bars workshop. Met on Tuesday. these. Um, when I first went, sorry, when I first went, it was on 66th Street, 667, and um, it was at the Y, and um, we would be there from 6:00 p.m. to 12 midnight. And he would start with the singers, do two hours with singers, then he'll do two hours with uh, the pianist, and then he'll have two hours of just improvisation. He'll just we'll just we'll just pick a tune and we'll work on it for like two hours, some times just one section you'll just spend like two hours just like going and this is how you practice it this is how you're supposed to hear it. And people have been going this there was one kind there was one time uh I went to the class and uh they were working through something and somebody who had been going to this class for like 20 years asked a question and you know back then everybody was having tape recorders all over the piano and stuff so they can hear him and see him every time he played Barry got so mad He threw all He's just smashed all the recorders down on the ground. He's like, "Y'all been coming to this class for 20 f****** years. Y'all still don't know what I'm I mean, he was just going, you still don't know the basic stuff, you know?" Yeah. I mean, he was he was very very special. I went to the Super Bowl. I went um to his house once uh for the Super Bowl. Um so Barry lived in uh the Baroness's old house and um... Yeah. the Cat House over in WeHawk. Yep, that's right. Looks over Manhattan. So, the Baron is Panonica. You heard that tune by the Lonius Monk. There's a lot of songs named after her. Well, Barry lived in that house for 10 years with the Loniest Monk. And when he when Monk passed and when the Baroness passed, she left the house to Barry. She said, "You could keep the house as long as you keep the cats." So, he's like 30 cats in the house. But by by the time I got there, most of them were dead. There's probably like two or three cats. had to lay around. But anyway, you know, we're sitting there and Barry Barry was serious about Scrabble. Barry had a big um dictionary on his coffee table like this. He said, "Who wants it? I got you. I'm ready." I said, "I'm not paying. I'm not playing you. I'm not playing you in Scrabble." So anyway, we're watching the game. Halftime shows happening. He doesn't want to hear who's playing during the halftime show. So he turns the sound off and I make a mistake and I get on the piano. I start playing. Now Barry has two pianos in his had two pianos in his house. The one on the left was Theonius Monk's piano and the other one was his. He refused to play Monk's piano. He said, "That's Monk's piano. I'm not touching it." So there was a light that was shining on it. That was about it. So I decided to get on Monk's piano. So I get on Monk's piano and I start playing. I think I might have played I don't know, Ruby My Dear or something. Crazy, right?

Lee Mergner (Host): Oh, you played a monk tune.

Sullivan Fortner: I played a monk tune on Monk's piano.

Lee Mergner (Host): That's what you should do, right?

Sullivan Fortner: Because I'm bold and stupid. So, so he hears me from the, you know, the coffee table. He's listening, you know, unbeknownst to me. And he's like, "Ah, play it right. Play it right. That's not right." And I'm like, "Okay, well then how's this supposed to go?" He gets up. He hobbles up to the other piano and he gives me a 30-minute lesson.

Lee Mergner (Host): On Monk's piano.

Sullivan Fortner: On Monk's piano. The first. It's the first and only time I got a chance to have a lesson with the with Barry Harris. It was really really cool.

Lee Mergner (Host): Did he teach you about working with vocalists? Did you learn about working with vocals? Because that's something you did so much later.

Sullivan Fortner: Kind of that kind of came. He did work with vocalists, but he didn't really tell me anything about the comp and you know, he would kind of like talk smack under his breath while I was playing for the singers. He was like, "You you played in a weird kid, you better play it right, too." You do stuff like that. Well, anyway, uh but for me, comping kind of came, it went back to my with to my mom, you know, just playing with singers in church. A lot of the principles are the same. Um but the experience of playing jazz singers, playing with jazz singers kind of came when I was in when I was at Oberlin. Um playing with a lady named Stephanie Jordan. And um... her family is a another famous family, Rodney Kent. Marlin. Yeah. Marlin. Yeah. Yep. That's right. Um, and the daddy's kid was like famous a vanguard. But, uh, she she kind of got me got my ears got my mouth watered for that. And then Robera Gambborini for a lot of years with Roy Harrove in that situation. Um, yeah. And then of course that graduated to other people, you know.

Lee Mergner (Host): Before we get into some of those other people, let you just brought up one of the big people in your life, which is Roy Harrove. Uh, how did you get the job with him initially?

Sullivan Fortner: Um, so it's a kind of a series of things kind of happened around that time. I had just moved to New York and I was hanging out with a buddy of mine I went to high school with named John Batis.

Lee Mergner (Host): Name dropper.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah, name dropper. I have to cuz he's famous. Everybody knows him, you know. And uh, Kelly, you like this. We used to have Oscar Peterson contest um when we were in high school. So whoever sounded the most like Oscar that day would be crowned the G of the day. So it was kind of like a way that we could kind of keep accountable to each other. Um so anyway, he was playing at this club called Cleopatra's Needle. And um and he said, "Man, you should come down and you know Royy's going to come. Royy's going to be there." I said, "Roy, who's like Roy Harrove?" And I said, "I had heard about him. I didn't really I wasn't I didn't know much about Roy when I came to New York. I was kind of a late bloomer to the Roy Hargrove camp. So anyway, he's playing with with Jonathan and then I'm sitting next to this guy named Rodney Kendrick who used to play piano for Abby Lincoln and you know Naughty by Nature. He became also a mentor of mine. He's the reason why I started going to Barry. So everything's kind of kind of coming full circle. So he's listening to me and Jonathan introduces me to Rodney and he's like, "Man, so who are you?" I'm Sullivan. I play F. I'm from New Orleans. He's like, "Well, who do you like?" Said, "Well, I listen to everybody." He was like, "That's interesting. You don't really have taste." And so I'm like, "Okay." So I'm curious. He's like, "I'm curious to hear you play." I'm like, "Okay." So Jonathan calls me up to play and he stands and he's looking at me. He's staring me down. By this time, Royy's gone. Roy done left. So he's standing. He's looking at me and he said, "When's the next time you playing?" So I'm playing next week at Cleo. I just just moved to New York and then I started doing like a weekly gig on Fridays and Saturdays from noon was it from midnight to 3:00 in the morning. We get paid like $50. So anyway, I'm playing this gig. Rodney shows up every week. He just come every week, you know. And then finally he walks up to me says, "So he tells me who he is." He said, "Well, I'm a piano player and um Roy has get coming up. I'mma bring him down to hear you." I'm like, "Okay." So, I meet Roy at Cleopatra's Needle. He hears me and he asks for my phone number. I'm like, "Okay, cool." Yeah. Roy Hard Grove. And then I don't hear anything from him. You know, months go by and then the tour Jonathan ends up getting a gig. So, he's do but he missed like a couple maybe like a like a month-long run with him because he had double booked himself with Cassandra Wilson. So, Jonathan recommends me to Royy's manager. He said, "I don't know no Sullivan for you to get get a good piano player to come and play with Roy. This is Roy Harrove. You going to get some no-name guy that just booed a New Yorker." So, I'm like, "Okay." So, then Rodney, they they contact Rodney. Now, how this works is that a lot of musicians, they would go to different piano players to refer them, you know? So, like if you want to if you want a gig, if a piano player wants a gig with Terrence Blanchard, Terrence calls Kenny Baron and asks him, "Who's a piano player I can get for the gig?" And nine times out of 10, Kenny would recommend the next pianist. That's how that works. Rodney was that guy for Roy. So when Rodney recommended me, he was like, "Okay, cool. Let him do we're going to give him a a run in Japan and, you know, a run in um Minneapolis and we're going to call it and see what he sounds like, you know." So I run into said, "Man, I'm looking forward to playing with you next week." He's like, "Oh, yeah. I remember you." "Yeah, this is going to be good." It's like, "Okay." That was it.

Lee Mergner (Host): You were with him for seven years.

Sullivan Fortner: I was with him for seven years. Seven years. I was I was in Roy's band for seven years. And um it was it was it was definitely a doctor's diploma and road chops. Boy, I I saw a lot. I saw a lot, man. I There was one time were playing somewhere in Italy, man. And Roy used to Roy needed Roy, he was dealing with dialysis, you real bad kidneys, and you know, so there was one day, you know, there's this portal that they plug you into to get the blood change. One time they popped open midway through the gig. There was a geyser of blood shooting out of his arm while we're playing. And Royy's gone. Roy is still playing. He's like, "Oh my god, we got to get him get the doctor, get the" And he ended up getting like five blood transfusions that You know, we didn't think he was going to make it then.

Lee Mergner (Host): And he probably then showed up later.

Sullivan Fortner: Showed up next. All right, let's play. Where where can we jam? He would Roy would go out off after gigs and just sit in around town everywhere. He was just always playing.

Lee Mergner (Host): Absolutely. He He was 100% music.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah. Nothing else. He loved it and he believed in the power of it and um he was always about supporting young people and really trying to get them to understand the importance of um just the fabric, the things that make up the music, you know, understanding Bbop, understanding the tradition, understanding, you know, the importance of playing ballads and tunes and and all of those things. He was he was he was I love I missed that dude every day. Every day. It's kind of hard to talk about him sometimes in the past because some you feel like he's still here, you know, but yeah.

Lee Mergner (Host): And he there was that period where he was singing Was he singing uh uh when you were with him?

Sullivan Fortner: Oh boy. Every gig. I mean by the towards the end Royy's Roy got really weak, you know. He had a lot of you because of the physical physicalities. He lost all his teeth at one point. So he had to get teeth implants. He had to relearn how to play. Sometimes he would do like he would do dialysis like every other day. And that zon you being plugged into that machine for like four hours. So that sometimes you just didn't have the strength to pick up the horn. So you would just sing, you know. Yeah. And and when he could play, sometimes his range was limited. He only played for like in one octave and probably one chorus and then that was it. He was done, you know. But it was so much music that he played in in that limited octave in that one chorus that, you know, said more than most people say in five choruses, 10 choruses, you know. Yeah. Special musician.

Lee Mergner (Host): Well, you uh uh uh uh talk about Oscar. Uh you you did a tour, right? Doing Oscar music.

Sullivan Fortner: I did. Um this guy named Jordi Sunsol um who's a promoter in Spain uh had the idea of calling me for some odd reason. I guess needed somebody that would do it for cheap to do uh to to play with uh John Clayton and Jeff Hamilton um during the Oscars centennial and was like, "Okay." Uh, so it's going back full circle to my John Batist days. So, I'm like, "Okay, let me listen to Oscar." I hadn't listened to him in a long time. And, um, as much as I love Oscar, um I was kind of cussing him under under my breath every time I heard it because it just was such demanding piano playing. The piano doesn't stop and it's relentless. Always just like rock mining off Pakofield level everything. he played was just very complicated and complex. You know what I'm saying? There was no breath. If you think I play a lot, Oscar. Wow. Um but um I learned a lot doing that tour with those guys just to listen to those stories of, you know, how he, you know, how he conducted the band, you know, how the bands came about, why he pick who he picked, the song selections, the arrangements, you know, on and on and on. It was really, really beautiful. You want to show us a little Oscar?

Sullivan Fortner: Oh god. Really?

Lee Mergner (Host): Do do the Oscar in the Oscar in the morning version? What's Oscar in the morning? What does Oscar sound like in the morning?

Sullivan Fortner: With us is Kelly Peterson, Oscar's widow, who we're going to be doing a session uh with Cecile for Ella and Oscar later this week. Keep Jared. You can take the rest of the day off. Yeah. Right. That was uh sort of Pli was from his Canadian suite. Right. Uh Um, yeah, that's OP tribute. Nobody could play like that, but that's a tribute.

Lee Mergner (Host): Yeah. Well, now let's let's segue to some of the vocals you've worked with. Of course, uh, with us on the cruise is Dee, who you've played with fair amount. Uh, what was that like?

Sullivan Fortner: Well, not as much as, uh, I may have done maybe like one or two gigs with her and, um, a recording session. Um, De's fearless, man. Dee is fearless and and she she requires a lot of energy. You play with Dee, that's a lot of energy you have to have cuz sometimes them sets can go you can tell them sometimes sets go like two hours.

Lee Mergner (Host): It's very hard to get off.

Sullivan Fortner: Carmen, the staff who's with her this week. That's that's Hannah. Oh. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. But yes, she can I mean she's like, "All right, cool." And it's like, "De, you got to get off. You got another set." So, okay. and then do it all over again longer, you know. Uh, and you know, when she gets into her thing and she really gets into it's it can it get it gets wild sometimes. She can she is liable to say anything anywhere at any time and do anything. You just got to be ready to just adjust to that. A complete master not just of singing but of entertainment, you know, I mean, she's she's she's a she's a she's a triple quadruple threat. Absolutely. I learned a lot playing with her in the short time I got the chance to.

Lee Mergner (Host): And of course, you were nominated for Gramp. Did you guys win a Grammy for Samar joy? Uh you did work with S Maro on that record. Uh uh the Christmas album.

Sullivan Fortner: The Oh, that was the holiday album. That was the holiday album. Yeah, we did win.

Lee Mergner (Host): Had you had you worked with her uh before?

Sullivan Fortner: I met her at Barry Harrison's class.

Lee Mergner (Host): Oh, wow.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah. She would she would come She she came and I was like, "Who's this little girl that see?" She's like, and she's like, "Oh my god, she's scared and just, you know, snot running out her nose." She had her notebook. A little notebook. She had a little notebook, you know. She was she was a kid, you know. She was freshman in college, you know. You know, she just started singing jazz at that time. Um but um very very u mature sounding voice, very different kind of a voice, you know, and um very very special personality also. very very sweet girl and um yeah and um and to watch her become you know what she is now is just really remarkable. It's like I knew I win. Yeah. She's changed her phone number I got to tell you.

Sullivan Fortner: No she hasn't actually. She hasn't changed the phone number. She hasn't you know. Yeah.

Lee Mergner (Host): Well that's who she is isn't it? And of course you will work with uh Cecil McLaren Salvant for how many years when did you start working with...

Sullivan Fortner: 10 years? Ah I've been playing with Cecilele. First gig was December 2015. What was it? It was a gig that I called her for at Misero. I had a big...

Lee Mergner (Host): Mro is a great little jazz club in New York City. Uh I mean it must hold the back room where they mostly is the music. It's I don't know 30 people maybe.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah. Yeah. I called it for a gig. Um I wrote on Facebook.

Lee Mergner (Host): At least it wasn't MySpace.

Sullivan Fortner: It wasn't MySpace back then. Back I'm not not that old. Well, anyway, um yeah, I wrote her and I was like, "Do you want to do this gig with me?" And, you know, at Misro. She's like, "Yeah, sure." I was like, "Okay, cool." So, I went to her house for a little rehearsal. And then, you know, we just kind of ran through a couple things. And by that time, she was playing a lot with Aaron Deal. So, the day of the gig, I called and said, "Man, what how do I play with this girl?" Like, do you want me to what? How do I think of it? Man, Cecil can sing through a tornado. You'll be fine. So, I'm like, "Okay." So, we show up to the gig, get walk in the club. Cecile walks to the band stand. Now, mind you, everybody's like talking and, you know, pre-show stuff. Cecile takes her scarf off and she turns around and looks at the audience and everybody said, they just gasped. They couldn't believe. I mean, I don't know how she did it, but immediately you couldn't hear a rat piss on cotton. It's the first time I had ever seen anybody demand attention just by turning around. You know what I mean? And we played this we played the two sets and it was probably one of the most enjoyable musical experiences for me. I felt like immediately I felt immediately at home with her like I could do anything I wanted and it would you know it's just like just one of those things that just kind of fit like a glove. for me and um we've been rocking it ever since.

Lee Mergner (Host): How how much do you rehearse? Sometimes it just seems like it's just happening in the moment.

Sullivan Fortner: It is. It is. It is 100%. Um um she's liable to be like um here um here's a song that I want to do. Can we do it tonight? I'm like, okay. And it could be anything random. It could be something from something as old as 500 BC.

Lee Mergner (Host): Goes back into the Greek.

Sullivan Fortner: She really goes back. She I'm serious. She has a song that we do that dates back to that time. You know, we do a song called uh based on the Agamemnon play or whatever. Um but anyway, so we something that far back all the way up through like David Bowie and you know her her pallet is very very wide and covers a lot of different kinds of music too from different countries. She sings in like about five languages. So it's just like all right, where are we going today? And however she feels whatever country we in, our program is always tailored to the country. So, if we're in Spain, she does a Spanish program. If we're in French, she we're in France, she does a French program. It's just like, you know, it's a lot of music to learn, and she's definitely opened me up to different sounds and possibilities.

Lee Mergner (Host): And she's also incredible visual artist, too, which is amazing.

Sullivan Fortner: I mean, she spends most of her time at home tatting and dealing with lace and and embroidery and drawing and painting and all kinds of stuff. At home is a trip. It's like you if walked into her house, you would never think that she was a singer. Just all this art everywhere. Yeah.

Lee Mergner (Host): Uh we have time for questions. Just raise your hand. Uh oh, we got one up front here. Up here. Tell us how you put your current... Oh, hold on. Just we want to put you on the mic.

Audience Member: Because we put all these on a podcast called Jazz Cruises Conversations. Just tell us how you put your current group together.

Sullivan Fortner: Um let's see. I got a call to do I said, "I call Kavon." Well, Kavon called me during the pandemic. Let's play a session. And I was like, "No, I'm not playing a session, but I do have a gig at Smoke. You want to do it?" It's like two nights of the jazz club Smoke. They were doing a live streams during that time. And I was like, he was like, "Okay, cool." I said, "Good. Pick a bass player." And so he got this guy named Adam and we had been playing together for a little bit. But then I, you know, you know, but then we wanted to go in a different direction and then Kavon was like, "Well, I got this guy named Tyrone." So, like, okay. And I had met Tyrone in Burn, I want to say, in Burn, Switzerland. He I was playing with the Clayton brothers and he was playing with a student group from Berkeley. And I remembered him when I saw him and we had played and I was like, "Okay, this is it." So, that's how I picked my trio. It kind of just fell in my lap and I knew I needed one. So, there it is. Mhm.

Audience Member: Wait, wait for wait for the microphone. Thanks. But don't take it. Okay. Yeah. So, are there some venues where you love the piano? You know that you know that X venue will have this piano. Isn't there Isn't there a piano great piano venue in Switz is it burn or is it Marian's or something?

Sullivan Fortner: Marian's is a there's a I remember a Steinway A. Uhhuh. there. It's decent. It's pretty good. Um I kind of I mean I my relationship with pianos are funny. You know, a lot of people say I remember the good ones. I always remember the bad ones, you know. Um I played somewhere in Poland once and there was this rock club that they converted, you know, just for one night for solo piano. It was a a Yamaha. Actually, it was a Yamaha. Small ones, very small Yamaha. Uh-huh. And uh the so the the keys are covered with this plastic. It's supposed to cover the wood on the keys. So the plastic part of the key came off and I got a splinter on like the like the third tune of a solo set. I said that's bad. That's not good. So that's a bad piano. I've had like playing the piano. I've gotten like at least about there have been like two or three occasions where I've gotten splinters and you know all kinds of stuff. stuff. But, you know, so I remember those more than I remember the good ones. But, um, some of my favorite places to play, I'll say like Vanguard, Village. Vanguard is like the holy grail. Um, Carnegie Hall, I got to, you know, got the privilege this last year. I got to play with there a lot with Cecilele in different stages of the of that room of that building. It was really, really cool. Um, always good pianos there, you know. Um, yeah.

Audience Member: we have a question here. I heard you first time on the last jazz cruise in January and was wonderful. Um, and I became affiliated with Open Studio from that trip. and I was just curious how if you've ever done anything through Open Studio or if you're familiar because I know Mr. Clayton is is all was all over it. The other thing is I love your bass player because uh I'm I'm a DC guy and he he's fantastic, but I just like to see what you think. about learning that way. When I heard you last night, I thought of two guys. I thought of a guy in DC named Dick Morgan who is very much in the Oscar Peterson thing. He's passion. I also thought about Barry Harris because I've learned Barry Harris through open studio. Oh yeah. And I thought you play a lot of little pretty things. and then they come together.

Sullivan Fortner: Well, well, Barry Barry was definitely an influence, you know, for me as far as harmonically and and uh just overall understanding the concept of Bbop, you know. As far as Open Studios goes, the guy who started it, Peter Martin, was actually my first piano teacher. Um,...

Lee Mergner (Host): another New Orleans guy, right?

Sullivan Fortner: Well, he's from St. Louis, but he lived in New Orleans for a number of years. Um, and um, yeah, so he's the one, he's the reason he said, "You look like Herby Hancock and you sound like him. You should you should listen to Herby." I was like, "Who's that?" It was a freshman freshman in high school. I didn't know nothing about jazz. Just like, so he gave me my first albums, you know, and just told me, "Learn stuff off the records and then come back next week once you learned it." I was like, "Okay, cool. Learned it." Cuz I learned everything by ear. So, I would learn four records in a week. You'd be like, "Okay, here's another one. Here's another one. Here you just kind of that was my that was my guy, you know." Um, so when he when he started the Open Studios thing, you know, he kind of was thinking he had been thinking a lot about me. And we actually did some things earlier this year. We did some filming for Open Studios earlier this year. And then we did a course um um that's going to come out soon on that platform.

Lee Mergner (Host): It's sort of like a master class uh sort of an online adult education right series. We have a question here. Uh can you name three of your favorite songs? Three uh three of my favorite songs. What are three of my favorite songs? I'll always have a special place in my heart for um That's tough. That's tough. Um, I'll have a special place in my heart for Through the Fire by Shaka Khan. I'll always have a special place in my heart for that. That's probably because it's my parents wedding song. It's It's part of the reason why me and my sisters are here is because of that song. I don't want to think about that too much, though. um my favorite things by uh Rogers and Hammerstein of course and um just off the top of my head because there's so many great songs. Um going back to the to I guess to the to the gospel tradition. Um one of my favorite favorite songs is probably one of the first songs I learned was uh from there a guy named Walter Hawkins. You ever heard Edwin Hawkins, right? So, his brother Walter uh had had a song on Level Eye 4. It's called Solid Rock. That's one of my That's one of my one of my favorite songs. One of my favorite.

Audience Member: We have a question back here. Yep. You're going to be on the boat with uh Cecile and Kristen McBride.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah, that's where I'm gonna be. All right. We going to be there. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about McBride's World at Sea coming up in January with Cecile. Uh, Letty. Yeah. Uh, Jose James. Jose James. I think Samar's on it, too. Sam was doing a shows. Letty. And all Christians bands. Yeah. All All 10 of them. Yeah. Alana says he can't keep a job.

Lee Mergner (Host): Final question.

Audience Member: Yeah. Hey, Sullivan. Hey. So, we saw you and Cecilele do that beautiful French fable with her art at SF Jazz, and you sang with her a bit. What about singing for you? I mean I I mean I've Did you sing last night?

Sullivan Fortner: I did. I I usually tend to sing when I like to sing when nobody's in the audience and they're drunk, you know. I mean, I don't know anybody that really loves this. I mean, I know a few people who love the sound of their voice, you know, like, you know, Sarah loves the sound. You tell by the way she sings. She just loves the sound of her voice. You know what I mean? Um, Leantine Price is another one that sings. You just tell she just in love with her voice. I can't stand my voice. I feel like I sound like a chicken. But, you know, it's fun to do. I mean, you know, singing is fun. It's just another extension of, you know...

Lee Mergner (Host): Did you sing in the choir?

Sullivan Fortner: I did. There you go. Sing in the choir. I sing with my singing with my family. I sing with my family. I sing with Cecile. I sing on my shows. You know, I sing in the shower like everybody else.

Lee Mergner (Host): The Forner family. I can see it coming.

Sullivan Fortner: Yeah, we sing. We sing. I'm going to try to do something with them. I'm working on I have some ideas of things that I want to do with them, with my family. So, I think my mom sang in January if y'all were on the cruise. Y'all heard her. Yeah.

Lee Mergner (Host): Well, thank you, Sullivan. Please join me in thanking... Thank y'all. Oh, your and his album your albums are What album is on the ship?

Sullivan Fortner: Um, the album's gone. I only had 30 copies and they sold out yesterday. Uh, Cash Money, but the album is called Southern Nights. Southern Nights one, and it's available on all the streaming platforms and stuff.

Lee Mergner (Host): What's the one that has the upside down cover?

Sullivan Fortner: Well, that's Solo Game. Yeah, Solo Game. Um, came out in 2000 last year, a couple years ago, I'm thinking. Yeah, it's my my Grammy nominated album. So, that's fun. There you go. For better, for worse. Yeah.

Lee Mergner (Host): Thank you, S. Thank you. Appreciate it. Well, I did almost a dozen interviews and talks during the cruise, but this one seemed to get the biggest response from our guests with so many coming up to me and talking about how much they enjoyed it. And by it, I do mean Sullivan. Well, last week, Sullivan was presented with the inaugural edition of the Larry J. Bell Jazz Artist Award, for which he will receive $300,000 to support his endeavors over the next four years. We send our congratulations to Sullivan for this prestigious award. Like more than 300 of our guests, Sullivan will sail back to back on both Christian McBride's World at Sea starting on January 20th and the Jazz Cruise, which set sail January 27th. During McBride's World at Sea, Christian will be presenting guest vocalists Letty, Angelie Kid, Samar Joy, Cecil Mclloren, Salvant, Jose, and Melissa Walker. And you'll hear Christian with his various ensembles, including his big band, Inside Straight, Ursa Major, and the Remembering Ray Brown Project with Benny Green and Gregory Hutchinson providing the laughs in addition to our comedian in residence Alonzo Bowden is his friend the comic gian George Wallace. Go to McBridesworldatsea.com to learn more. The Jazz Cruise features more than 100 artists and 200 hours of music. Headliners include Katherine Russell, Ron Carter, Pikito de Rivera, Chucho Valdez, Curt Elling, Anat Cohen, Janice Seagull, Monte Alexander, Matthew Whitaker, John Pitzerelli, Veronica Swift, and Dozens more. It really is straight ahead jazz heaven. Learn more at thejazzcruise.com. Our theme music is by Marcus Miller from his song High Life on his album Aphrodesia that's on the Blue Note label. And thanks to Matt the sound engineer in the rendevous lounge for capturing this and other talks from the journey of Jazz Cruz. Uh we hope you'll subscribe to Jazz Cruz's conversations on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts and you can listen back to more than a hundred interviews. from past sellings. Thanks for listening.