Marcus Miller & Alonzo Bodden: Miles, Studio Secrets, and the Pork Pie Hat

Bassist, bandleader, and host Marcus Miller sits down for an insightful and entertaining one-on-one session with his friend and comedian-in-residence, Alonzo Bodden. Recorded on The Smooth Jazz Cruise 2019, Miller discusses the definitive chronology of his life, clarifying that he was 21 years old when he started playing with Miles Davis, not 14. The conversation also delves into his prolific career as a New York studio musician, the story behind his signature pork pie hat, and how he mentors the next generation of jazz talent.

Key Takeaways

• Career Output: Marcus Miller estimates he has performed on somewhere between 500 and 700 records or sessions.
• The Studio Musician Era: Miller detailed the demanding nature of being a studio musician in New York during that era; they were prized for being excellent readers who could get recordings done quickly because studio time was very expensive. He recalls that for a recording date with Frank Sinatra, conductor Quincy Jones required the big band to have the music ready for a single take.
• Early Milestones: Miller's professional timeline included going on the road with flute player Bobby Humphrey at age 16 and touring with Lenny White at age 18. At 19, his reading ability—which he attributed to his classical clarinet background—impressed producer Ralph McDonald, leading to Miller working in studios from 9:00 a.m. until midnight every day.
• Joining Miles Davis: Miller confirmed he was 21 years old when Miles Davis called him. He recounted that the call came with only a couple of hours' notice, which was "perfect" because it prevented him from making himself nervous by practicing every Miles Davis song he knew.
• Mentorship: Now the veteran, Miller enjoys playing with young musicians because their energy reminds him of his own youth and they "hip you to stuff that's current". He believes this practice of incorporating young talent is what Miles Davis wanted when using new musicians—to stay tied into what was happening now.
• Creative Inspiration: Miller often finds musical inspiration from everyday life, such as the rhythm of windshield wipers while waiting at a red light. He shared a memorable anecdote about Luther Vandross requesting that a mix sound like "Skippy Peanut Butter Chunky" rather than "Skippy peanut butter smooth," meaning he wanted the instruments popping out of the mix.
• Hearing and Focus: Miller revealed that he lost hearing in one ear due to measles or scarlet fever when he was two or three years old, but does not recognize it as a handicap. He noted that his wife, Brenda, is careful to place herself on his non-working side at restaurants so he doesn't have to strain to hear or stare at people while they talk.
• The Pork Pie Hat Image: The hat became his professional look after he wore it on The Arsenio Hall Show in the early 90s. He realized taking it off allowed him to move around unrecognized, like Clark Kent's glasses. He appreciates the connection the pork pie hat gives him to the tradition of old bebop musicians, citing Lester Young and Charles Mingus's song "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat".
• Staying Grounded: Family is crucial for keeping Miller grounded, preventing him from "believ[ing] the hype". He noted that after profound moments with fans, he returns home to real-life issues, like his wife mentioning, "the toilet's been stopped up for three weeks".
• Musical Prejudice: Miller uses his ba

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Afrodeezia on Blue Note.

Transcript

(Preamble/Sponsor)

A quick word from our sponsors. This week's episode of Jazz Cruise Conversations is sponsored by the Bluenote Jazz Clubs, one of our partners for Bluenote at Sea. The Bluenote in New York City was opened in 1981, has become one of the premier jazz clubs in the world. In recent years, owner Steven Ben Suzanne has gone on to open Blueote Clubs in Beijing, Honolulu, Tokyo, Milan, Rio, and the Napa Valley. Learn more about upcoming shows at all of the venues at bluonotejazz.com. Now enjoy this week's episode of Jazz Cruise Conversations.

(Introduction by Host Lee Mergner)

Hi and welcome to Jazz Cruise Conversations, a podcast presented by Entertainment Cruise Productions. I'm your host, Lee Mergner, and this week's episode is number 25 in the series of Conversations from the Jazz Cruises We Produce. This interesting one-on-one session was moderated by our comedian and residence, Alonzo Bowden, who interviewed his friend and fellow host for both The Smooth Jazz Cruise and Blue Note at Sea, Marcus Miller. The basis and band leader talked with Alonzo about the real chronology of his life, including exact exactly how old he was when he started playing with Miles Davis. No, he wasn't 14 years old. And about how his pork pie hat became his professional but not personal look. And so much more. So, let's get right to it, shall we? Check out this engaging conversation with Marcus Miller recorded on the Smooth Jazz Cruise earlier this year.

(Conversation Begins)

Alonzo Bodden: How's everybody doing? You guys good? All right. Test one, two. This is it. Can you make my mic louder than Alonzo's, please? Don't worry, I just asked the questions, you answer them. So, this one's all about you, ladies and gentlemen. Marcus Miller.

Marcus Miller: All right. Thank you.

Alonzo Bodden: Welcome to the Marcus Miller interview. Most of you know Marcus's background. You know, none of us know everything he's done, nor does he. I I have actually been with him when he heard something. It was like, wait, that's He play I played on that. So, do you know how many uh records, sessions, etc. you've done?

Marcus Miller: I don't know. They said um it's somewhere between 500 and maybe 700. Um and that's impressive until you talk to Lee Written who started who's like on 3,000 or something like that. But, um you know, in New York we had what you call studio musicians and we didn't go on the road. What we did was we lived in New York and and whoever needed musicians to do a recording project, uh, they'd call us. And the reason they called us was because we could play with some feeling, but we we were really good readers. We could read music really well. So, we could get the the song recorded really quick cuz studio time at that at in in that era, studio time was very expensive. So, they needed musicians who could get it quick, you know. So, we had like um a recording date with Frank Sinatra, right? And the room was full of musicians. The room was actually about the size of this lounge. here and he had a big band and all these musicians and Quincy Jones was the conductor, right? And he said, "Look, gentlemen, Frank is only going to come in here and sing it, sing the song once and then he's going home. So, we have to have it together." You know what I mean? So, he said, "The reason I called all y'all is because I know you guys can get it together quick." And that's what we did. By the time Frank walked in there, we had it ready to go. One take.

Alonzo Bodden: You better. You better. Hey, man. That was the only recording session I ever did where there were like these Italian guys at the elevator to check your your ID. And I don't mean just Italian. Y'all know what I mean when I say Italian.

Marcus Miller: What's your name?

Alonzo Bodden: I said, uh, Marcus Miller. Okay, go. Okay. And and to clear this up, cuz we've been joking about this all week about how young you were when this started. I think we finally got it down to three. I think three.

Marcus Miller: Well, you made it worse, man, cuz you did your your your your comedy thing right after we played Yeah, and Dave Gusen and they, you know, there were recordings in '77, '78 and '79 and Lee before each song and he'd tell people how old I was when we recorded the song and then Allonzo just took it. He just said, "Man, how young are you?"

Alonzo Bodden: Well, because you know, you guys know I hang out with Marcus and I hear what people say when they come up. So, so all kidding aside, the youngest we heard was that you were in Miles Band when you were 14.

Marcus Miller: We did hear that, right? We did hear that. So, so look, someone said, "Wow." Like that was true. They're like, "Wow." So, can you clear can you clear up the timeline of that? When you start like when what age you were when you did your first professional recording, right? When you got your first paycheck and then what age you, you know, went to Miles Band and and did the hit started with Luther, etc.

Marcus Miller: Okay. Um, I'm born and raised in New York, and the reason I start with that is because it's easier to start young if you're already living in New York. If you live in St. Louis or you live in in in in um Minnesota, something like that, you got to at least finish high school before you can go to New York. And then you got to introduce yourself to everybody and try to get on the scene. I was already doing that. So, by the time I was 16, I went on the road with a flute player named Bobby Humphrey. Anybody remember Bobby Humphrey? She had a big hit called Harlem River Drive. And so, I was in her band and I I did some touring with her. And then I was working in the studio with a piano on a play named Lonnie Lon Smith, right? And so that's 16, 17 years old. Then I went on the road with Lenny White and Lenny White at that time had just left Chickers Return to Forever, which is one of your favorite groups, you know, and uh I did a tour with Lenny. So that's 18. When I was 19, I wrote a song for Bobby Humphrey and I gave her my little cassette, you know, to hear hear my little song that that I wrote and she liked it and she said she wanted to record it. So I said, "Oh, really? When are you doing a record?" She says, this guy Ralph McDonald is producing the album for me. So, I'm going to play the song for Ralph and see if he likes it enough to record it. So, she played it for Ralph and Ralph liked it and she said, "Can my bass player play on the record?" And usually the studio producers, they don't want musicians from the road to play in the studio because musicians on the road, they play with a lot of energy and sometimes all that energy makes for sloppy playing. And in the studio, everything has to be really exact. So, he was a little reluctant, but she said, No, he's really good, you know. And so they let me play. And so, wow, it's great because Ralph McDonald was one of the biggest producers at the time. You know, Mr. Magic, that song that we we played, Ralph wrote Mr. Magic. Ralph wrote Where Is the Love for Roberto Flag and Donnie Hathaway? So, Ralph was a man. I'm man, I'm getting ready to play for Ralph McDonald. So, I went in the studio and I played. And after the uh recording was over, Ralph said, "Okay, that's great. Thank you very much." Sent us home. Didn't say it was good or bad. He just it was fine. So, I said, "Man, that That didn't go the way I planned. So Lonzo, the next the next um the next year I wrote another song for Bobby, but this time I put a bass solo in the song."

Alonzo Bodden: Yeah. I said he going to he going to notice. because all great songs start with. Right. Right. Exactly. So I got to play, you know, I got to play, you know, a little solo and he's looking at me. So he said to me, the reason I'm telling you the story is he said to me, "Can you read music?" And I said, "Yeah, man. I can." He said, "Don't don't BS me cuz I'm about to start recommending you for studio work here in New York and you got to be able to read. I said, "Man, I'm a classical clarinet player." That's where I went through college and all that. So, I said, "I can read fly poop on toilet paper." And and he said, "Uh, okay. I'mma put your name." And within four weeks, I was working in the studios from 900 a.m. till midnight every day. And um at that time, there were no computers, so anybody who need needed music, needed musicians. So, there was so much work, you know. So, I'm playing for Elton John and Melbourne Moore and Roberto Flack and Ralph McDonald and Grover Washington Jr. and uh then I got in the house band for Sid Night Live.

Alonzo Bodden: Right.

Marcus Miller: So, that's 21 22 years old. And then Miles called and I was 21 when I was with Miles. So, that's a long way to answer that. I was not 14 when I played with Miles. I was 21 years old.

Alonzo Bodden: So, all of this happening at that young age and I I think of what I was doing, you know, from 17 to 21 and and it had nothing to do with Ralph McDonald or Robera Flack never called or anything, but but at that age doing that, were you ever intimidated to be, you know, amongst these I mean not just stars but superstars or or brilliant people in your profession that we may not have known the names, but you knew that these people were huge. So,

Marcus Miller: Right. So, I I remember remember um the first time I played with George Benson who was one of my heroes. He's most of the musicians on the ship. George Benson is a hero. And I remember um being a little nervous when I went to uh play with him to the session. But I love music so much and it's so so important to me that once we started playing, I forgot about being nervous. All I was worried about was making this thing sound good, you know, and supporting George Benson with that bass. And then when the song was over, I go, "Oh man, I forgot I'm nervous." You know, so the music really helps. You know, same thing with Miles Davis. You know, you know, he called me in New York. He said, "I've been in retirement for five years. I'm coming out of retirement and I heard that you're good. Can you be at the studio in a couple of hours?" I was like, "Is this really Miles Davis?" And he said, uh, he said, "Yeah, can you be at the studio?" So, I said, "Yeah." So, I told you this before, it was perfect because if he had called me like a month ahead of time, I would have went home and practiced every Miles Davis song I knew. You you know, and and I would have made myself crazy. But since I only had two hours, that was just enough enough time for me to get to the studio. So, I was just open. I was just like, you know, he walked in the door, he showed me the song, next thing you know, we're playing music. And once you're playing music, all the nervousness goes out the window.

Alonzo Bodden: Yeah. Okay. So, now let's and we're going to go between, but now let's jump ahead to where you're that guy right now. When you call a young musician, he's like, "Is this really Marcus? You know what I mean? So, how do you pick you your band for those if you haven't seen Marcus' band, there's a lot of young guys and ever since I've known you, you've always had young guys in your band. How do you pick them? And how does it feel to be that guy now that you're on the other side of that equation? You're the guy calling a young musician and you you know how he feels because you were that. So, what's that like?

Marcus Miller: Well, the the um first of all, I was always at least 12 years younger than everybody else in the band for like most of my life, you know, I was working with Ralph. I was working with Robera Flag, Luther Vandross. He and I made a lot of records together. So, I was always the kid. I mean, my whole mentality is still of being the kid because I was always the youngest guy there. So, I tell stories, you know, and no one was listening to me when I was 25. But now, you know, when I got older, I tell the stories and I'd see these musicians that I'm with, they're looking at me with their eyes open like, "Wow, you met Dizzy Gillespie?" You know what I mean? I realize, oh no, I'm that guy.

Alonzo Bodden: Yeah, you're the old guy now.

Marcus Miller: Yeah, I'm the old guy now. Yeah, I said that to you just the other day. We were in the We were backstage with Robert Glasper and and and some of the musicians who played on the previous cruise, the Blue Note Cruise, and I was talking and I realized they're sitting there like not saying anything. And I looked at Alonzo and said, "I'm that dude, ain't I?" He said, "Yes, you are." But, you know, I went and did a week at Berkeley College of Music, you know, just um doing a workshop with the musicians and I met this young saxoponist who who was a sophomore at Berkeley and he was just incredible. And I said, "How many how many years do you have left in in school?" He said, "I'm a sophomore. I got two more years." I said, "Okay, well, I'm going to bring you out in the summer and then I'm sending your butt back to school." You know what I mean? And made him graduate. I'm sure he was a pain in the butt to his professors for those last two years because I had him playing with Herby Hancock on the cruise. He was playing with all sorts of people. Those professors couldn't tell him nothing when he went back to school, you know. Anyway, he was amazing. And then I just said, "Hey, man. I need a drummer who's as talented as you." And so he he introduced me to this drummer who introduced me to a guitar player. So I got plugged in to the young musicians. And playing with them, it reminded me of when I was that age and had that energy and and all your future ahead of you. And there's so many possibilities. And I like that energy. And plus, they'll hip you to stuff that's um that's current, you know, so you can update your music so you don't sound like you've been playing the same thing over and over again. So it really works well. I think that's what Miles wanted. when he was using new musicians, he wanted to get tied into what was happening now. And for some musicians, that's really important, myself included.

Alonzo Bodden: Cool. Cool. Hey, I I got a quick side note, and I hate being the one to have to say this. Some of you are taking pictures, which is cool, but we'd rather you not record. Okay. Some of you holding up the phones and recording, so please, let's just keep it here. All right. Okay. Getting back getting back to you and to all this and the creativity of it, which is fantastic. Do you still practice?

Marcus Miller: Oh yeah, I practice uh every opportunity I get. And people laugh, you know, like somebody call me, "What you doing, man?" I say, "I'm practicing." They go, "Yeah, yeah, right." But it's like being an athlete, man. You wouldn't be surprised if you saw Serena Williams, you know, practicing, you know what I mean? And we have to keep we got to keep our physical fingers, you know, in shape. We got to, you know, you got to be in shape to hold that instrument on your shoulders for for a couple hours. And you got to keep your brain sharp because I was talking about this at the guitar um seminar. You know, you got to be able as a jazz musician, you got to be able to imagine something and as quick as you imagine it, you got to be able to make it come out of your instrument, you know, and there's a lot of, you know, it looks easy. You know, they used to think that jazz musicians were sants, you know what I mean? They're just happy negroes, you know, just playing. You know what I mean?

Alonzo Bodden: Meanwhile, people didn't have any idea how how diligent you have to be to imagine something and just improvise on the spot. And if you ever wondered how difficult it is, ask a classical musician to improvise, they would look at you like you're crazy. You know, you said, "When we get to this section, just make something up." They'd be like, "Man, you better write it out."

Marcus Miller: Yeah. You better write it out. So, anyway, you have to practice to keep that keep that connection going.

Alonzo Bodden: Which leads into my next question and and again, this is we've talked about this and I know you talked about it like with Luther. You said Luther would just sing a sound or he would hear something like you told me one time Luther heard a refrigerator close and he's like, "I want that sound and you you have to create that. Do you hear things outside of music that sound musical to you and you're like, "Oh, let me create that sound or recreate that sound or or somehow copy it, you know, inspirations for not for songs, but just for sounds and notes, etc?"

Marcus Miller: Well, Luther Luther said, "Marcus, I want the bass drum to sound like my refrigerator closing." And he had a lot of um food references, right? That was my boy. That was like my big brother. But he he say he said, "Look, man. We just finished a mix." You know, and the mix is when you balance all the different instruments. Make sure one's not too loud, one's not too soft. Make sure you can hear the singer clearly. That's called the mix. And uh Luther said, I said, "What do you think about this mix?" He says, "It sounds like Skippy peanut butter smooth." He said, "And I wanted to sound like Skippy Peanut Butter Chunky." So, you know what? That's not a musical explanation, but I knew I knew exactly what what he meant. He wanted to hear the instruments popping out of the mix rather than everything just sound like on one level. So, he was brilliant. He was truly a musician. He didn't learn all the Italian words like adagio and and retardando and all that stuff, but he'd get his point across, you know. So, for me, when it's raining and the windshield wipers are going in your car and you get to that red light and you're waiting, that thing's going I'm like And my wife would look at me like, you know, I'm gonna have to the red light's going to turn green in a minute. Just stay here for a minute. Just stay here for a minute.

Alonzo Bodden: For me, the F train Yeah.

Marcus Miller: had its own rhythm, you know. So, I think that um even musicians who don't realize it are getting inspiration from the real world, from life. That's really what it's all about.

Alonzo Bodden: Well, I know I live in LA and if I'm ever stuck in traffic on a rainy day I'd be like, man, that better not be Marcus up there writing a song. The the right pitch of rain is falling in LA.

Marcus Miller: Yeah, if Yeah, but in New York that that's when I used to get the the songs in my head because it rains in New York a lot. Yeah, in LA you only have three songs written in a year. They'd be good though.

Alonzo Bodden: They'd be good songs. Yeah, I've been saving up. So, uh and in talking about this, it it leads to another topic, your hearing, which um I don't know how many people know this, but but Marcus only hears out of one ear. I had. So, can you explain that and and how, you know, amazing that is that you do all of this with with one ear?

Marcus Miller: Well, I I had either measles or scarlet fever. My mom can't remember which one because I couldn't tell her. I was two or three. And so, but one ear, I lost hearing in one ear. And um you know, If you've been like that since three years old, I don't really recognize it as a handicap. You know, the only thing is um and some of you might have noticed that if you're talking to me on this side, I might ignore you and you just assume I'm just one of those arrogant musicians, you know, really, but um if you if you approach me from this side, I won't know what you're saying. So, trying to locate sound. If somebody called me, if you call me from across the street, you need two ears to figure out where to look. You know what I mean? So that's difficult. Mixing music is cool. I sleep really well because when I sleep on the ear that works, silence, you know what I mean? But I never really uh I never really um you know recognize it as a as a handicap. It was just, you know, just glad, you know, and music is so important to me. You know, I do try to take care of the one that works.

Alonzo Bodden: Yeah. No, I don't I don't think of it as a handicap. I think it's incredible that you do it. Now, you you know, you mentioned uh Brenda uh your wife, how long were you with her before you told her you couldn't hear out of that ear? In other words, she just be talking on this side and you just be like, "Yeah, uh-huh. Yep. Yeah, you're right. Uh-huh. How long before you let her in on that?"

Marcus Miller: Well, you know what happens is that uh I learned early on. I didn't even know I was learning, but you learn to lipre subconsciously. You know what I mean? So, because I'm in New York, we're on a train all the time, you know, and I'd be looking, you know, at her lips to figure out what she's saying and I can understand it like that. So, she was like, "Uh, man, you really pay attention, don't you?" Cuz cuz I was, you know, like really staring at I don't remember when I when I when I finally told her, but it was very early on, you know what I mean? And like I said, it doesn't really affect your day-to-day life that much. So, it was never really been an issue. She is really careful. You probably notice when we eat dinner together at a restaurant that she'll put me on the side. She'll put herself on the side that doesn't work so that I'm protected from some, you know, having a conversation with somebody and either having to stare in their grill, you know, while they're talking or um or not hearing what they're saying.

Alonzo Bodden: Yeah. I mean, Brenda's fantastic. You know, that I love her. She's she's a lot of fun. And your family your family is great. So, um with the kids, are any of them in music now? Did they follow in dad's footsteps in any way?

Marcus Miller: Well, they they all love music. Um the oldest boy, a beautiful classical pianist, but he decided to go into politics. So, he's like a White House correspondent right now. Like he's at the press conference that all the crazy mess is going on. He's in the middle of that. And hopefully he comes home and plays some piano to get his head back together after all that craziness. And then uh his younger brother uh is a hip-hop producer and uh you know he writes like pop and hip-hop music. And right now he was working for Q-Tip for a while. You guys know Q-Tip from a tribe called Quest? And now Now he's doing some stuff for Lauren Hill. So, uh, he's doing his thing. And then we have two daughters who are younger than the boys. And, uh, Nikki, our older daughter, she played for the the flute for a while. And then she just had it. One day she just begged me, "Can I please quit the flute?" And I was like, "Okay." But you got to keep music in your life. You know what I mean? And Brenda and I are really, it's really important that music that's even more important than like being in the music business. Just being able to use music to feed your soul and to to calm you down when you need calming down, that kind of stuff. And she uses that. So, she's always hipping me to new music, you know. She's she's adamant that I do a collaboration with Chance the Rapper.

Alonzo Bodden: Yeah. I don't even think it's a bad idea. What do you think? I think it's No, I think it's a great idea. I have I have I have a a niece who keeps asking me why I'm not on Two Dope Queens. Like, she's like, "You need to talk to them. They're cool." You know? So, I Yeah, I know what that's like. So,

Marcus Miller: and then our younger daughter, she plays a guitar and uh She uh but she was like a Latin scholar, you know what I mean? And she uh she graduated from Stanford with a degree in classics, you know what I mean? And she's an equestrian like my wife. Like they do the the thing where you jump over the over the fences. Hunter jumper is what they call them. So everybody's into their own thing, but music is really an important part of their life.

Alonzo Bodden: Yeah. Now, um I don't most people know, but but very quickly, can you give the story of the hat because that's going to lead into the next question and you know what that question is going to be. So So tell everyone about about your hat, how it became part of your image and and you became the image for the pork pie hat for a while, right?

Marcus Miller: Yeah. So, the hat's called a pork pie hat and the pork pie hat is flat on the top. The federa hat has the crease in the top, you know, that's the one they used to wear like in the movies like but um the pork pie hat was really famous in the 40s. All the BBOP musicians, all the jazz musicians used to wear pork pie hats. I was getting ready to go sit in with the Arcenio Hall band. This is back in like in the early 90s. and I passed by a a a clothing store and they had a hat in the window. I wish I could give you a cooler story, but I saw the hat. I pulled the car over, went and bought the hat and wore it on the Arsenial Hall show. And I got a lot of letters from people go, "Man, dig dig your Somebody call it a sky." Old dude said, "Man, I dig your sky." I said, "Is that slang for a hat?" Say, "Yeah, okay, good."

Alonzo Bodden: You just You got to check with Nick Kolon on stuff like that.

Marcus Miller: Nick could tell me. Anyway, I bought a hat, you know, and I took an album cover picture with the hat. That's cool. You know what I mean? And I did did the tour and a couple years later it was time to do another album and I made the mistake of wearing the hat again. Okay. So now people are starting to connect me with the hat, right? And I'm going this is I don't know if this is cool or not. Then I started realizing that when I take the hat off, nobody knows who I am. So I I started really getting into that. It's like Clark Kent's glasses, right? So what I would do I remember we were playing a gig in Paris and the tour manager comes to me like he's really worried. I said, "What's wrong?" He said, "Man, we got a we have a gig in Corsica and we have to leave right now to get on the bus to get on the ferry to take us to Corsica." And there I said, "Okay, that's cool. What's wrong?" He said, "There's 200 people at the backstage door trying to get your autograph and you you'll we'll never make it on time." I said, "I got you." He said, "How you going to do it?" I said, "I got you." So, I went to the backstage exit, took off my hat, And then I I looked in people's faces to say hi and they dismissed me looking beyond me to wait till Marcus comes through the door. Right? Like I was having fun with I was like, "Hey man, how you uh get out the way man wait for Marcus." So I got into that and then Julian, the guy who's into the hip-hop music when he was very small, we'd be walking through the airport and he'd go, "Take it off." And I take it off. We walk for about five minutes. Okay, now put it on. And I put it on and Hey Marcus, what's going on man? And he used to get a kick out of that man. So anyway, you know, once you did once I did the third album, it was it was a rap, you know what I mean? And people started connecting me with the hat. And I really did like the connection to the old Bbop musicians. Matter of fact, there was a saxophone playing named Lester Young, right? And Lester Young was famous for wearing this poor pie hat. And when he passed, Charles Mingus, who was a great basist and composer, wrote a song in honor of Lester called goodbye pork pie hat, right? So, I really like being part of that tradition, you know. And then Wikipedia, you know, when you looked up pork pie hat, for a lot of years, Wikipedia had a picture of me, right? And then Breaking Bad came out and Walter White's alter ego when he became like a meth dealer, he put on this hat and he became Heisenberg, right? And Breaking Bad was so famous that Walter White kicked me off of Wikipedia. I ain't mad at it.

Alonzo Bodden: You had a good run? I had a good run. Yes. You know, so you know, without without getting too graphic, you know, you this this was early on when I met Marcus. I was like, "Oh, he's Marcus." He's like, "Yeah, I'm Marcus here, but when I go home and take this hat off, I'm just husband."

Alonzo Bodden: So, so how talk about about that shift because I think this is what keeps you grounded, right? That shift when you when you go home, when you get away. away from it all. You have a a real life. So

Marcus Miller: yeah, you know, you can uh you can really start to believe the hype if you stay out here too long. You know what I mean? Because people music is so strong. You know what I mean? Like imagine somebody comes up to you and says, and I'm not lying, this really happened to me. This guy goes, Marcus, this is my wife. She literally was in a coma, okay? And she's ready to check out. and I played your amazing grace, which is one of the the song I played at the gospel thing. I played your amazing grace and man, she opened her eyes, right? And this is her, right? She's standing right here, right? Man, I didn't even know how to handle that. You know what I mean? Imagine. Imagine that, man. Or somebody um says, "Hey, man. This is my boy, my young boy. His name is Marcus." Right? And you go, "Oh, man. You know, you named him after Marcus Garvey, like my dad." No, I named him after you. you know, and it trips me out, man. So, you can start to, you know, get a little big head when you walking around. Yeah, man. People name their kids after me. But then I get home and my wife is like, "Listen, the toilet's been stopped up for three weeks." And you know, the kids are like, "Dad, come on. Let's go do this. Let's go do that." And it really is important, man, because you know, I think a lot of artists, they think that the music is coming from from them, right? Just like emanating from them. And I realize it's just coming through me, you know what I mean? My father was a musician. His dad was a musician. So, I'm just part of this line, you know what I mean? So, I'm just happy to continue the story and I got a family who I mean, don't get me wrong, Brenda loves my music. She's the one who says, "Look, you got to play this song because it's going to really make your set better." She's really like knows about it, but it doesn't go too far where You know, I can walk around ordering her what to do. That ain't going to work.

Alonzo Bodden: Yeah. You know, I got a little nervous just hearing you say that out loud.

Marcus Miller: Ordering her around. Yeah. Yeah. Made you flinch a little bit, didn't it?

Alonzo Bodden: We Brenda's a sweetheart. We joke about her, but but Brenda's great. Now, get getting back to the music and you know that the you joked about it earlier about being a negro jazz musician and this has come up with music, jazz in particular. crosses color lines, race, age, gender, like it it's just like I was doing a thing with Kirk this morning. I said, you know, with jazz people, either you're cool or you're not cool. Like that's where the the separation is. But coming up in your career and dealing with this, all the traveling, all the has that ever been an issue? Have you ever had to deal with the issue of um race, stereotypes, etc? I know that like last week Wenton Marcales was on last week and he talked about growing up in Louisiana. You know, even though he was a great musician, he still had to deal with racism and stuff like that because he was in Louisiana back in the back in those days. How about you? Has there has that ever been an issue?

Marcus Miller: I haven't had stuff as overt as Winton who grew up in in New Orleans. Uh because I grew up in the 60s and the 70s and you know, things were beginning to change. You know, I remember my little league coach, man, I can how come you never put me in the lineup? You know what I mean? Stuff like that. And my dad who was like, "I'll tell you why." You know, blah blah blah. And I, "Dad, that can't be it." You know, but it was always uh subtle. It was always subtle. And then um you know, I think I talked to you about this before. There's a way to use prejudice to flip it. Meaning, if you're in school as a 12-year-old student, The teacher looks at you and sees you're a little black kid. Teacher goes, "Okay, I know what he's all about. I put him in a category. I prejudge him." Right? So, she's prejudging you and then you take the first test and everything's right. And she thinks, "Maybe that was a mistake." And then you take the second and third and she goes, "Whoa, this really excites me. This is really interesting to me." Now she's calling me, you know, like you went from being judged, prejudged, and now it's special. You know what I mean? It shouldn't be that way. But now she considers you special, you know, and I got to tell her, "Look, I'm not special. I come from a whole family who who values education, you know, aunts, uncles, everything." Same thing with being a bass player, you know, you walk in there, you know, with your afro and your pick into the studio and it's a it's a, you know, big fancy Frank Sinatra day.

Alonzo Bodden: How many people had a moment they imagined Marcus with an afro and a pick? Hey man, just imagine Germaine Jackson with a bass. That that was me, Michael's brother. Anyway, you walk in there and they go, "Okay, who's the little teenager that you got on bass?" You know what I mean? So, they're prejudging you. But if you kill it, then they go, "Man, we got this teenager on bass." You know, it goes from that. You You'll find these days there's a lot of uh females, a lot of women, a lot of girls who are playing bass guitar now. It's all of a sudden it's like 50/50. It's just just happened. And so, if you're if a girl bass player, you walk in, everybody goes, "Oh, no. Here we go. I hope she can hold it down." Like the big 240lb brother who was playing the bass last week, right? So, they're prejudging her, but if she's good, everybody wants her in their band, right? Because it goes from uh uh from a prejudgment to this amazing thing, you know? So, I had more experiences like that, you know, where it was more like, "Yeah, we're not sure about you." And then they go, "Oh, wow. This guy's really, really cool. He plays classical music he does blah blah blah." It's not the cure to racism, you know what I mean? Because not everybody's going to be able to impress people enough to erase the prejudice. But that was my experience, you know. So, I was very fortunate. When we go to Paris, when we go to these different European cities, there's a lot of prejudice, you know, especially these days, um, you know, a lot of racism, but they have a special soft spot for black jazz musicians in Europe, you know what I mean? So, I I couldn't tell you what it's really like in Europe. You know what I mean?

Alonzo Bodden: Because you well you open doors for others, right? You open their doors.

Marcus Miller: But that's the good thing because they they said, "Well, like I knew I met this guy, so my my prejudice is not going to be so strong next time. He might be like he's cool. So

Alonzo Bodden: now in in the same vein musically, you also do this, you know, and I've seen you do this where people have musical prejudice. It's not pre it's snobbery, right? Where people like like they're like, "Oh, no. I listen to to nothing but traditional jazz. I will not listen to anything written after 1945."

Marcus Miller: Yeah. Blah blah blah. And then next thing you got them doing the butt.

Alonzo Bodden: And they're like, "What what is this funk you speak of? You speak of Well, you know, how how how is that? How do you like how do you judge how far to push him and and is it fun to do that to surprise and have them liking music that they didn't maybe didn't even know existed, much less knew that they liked, etc. So, so smashing down those musical divisions.

Marcus Miller: Yeah, that's really important. And you know, the jazz crews, this is a smooth jazz cruise. The jazz crews is is like what Alonzo just described. You know, these people are probably 10 years, 15 years older than you guys, you know, and they want to hear the music they grew up with, which is 1940s, 1950s, right? And If you try to come up with something older than us, sorry, more recent than that, then they're they're really judgmental about it. It's not like they go, "It's not for me." They go, "That's not music." You know? So, they judge y'all. They're like, "Y'all listening to that ain't nothing but disco." You know, now you know they're old when they're calling it disco, right? So, okay. So, what do I do? So, we go up and I bring my young musicians who all learned, they learned every decade of jazz. My young guys, right? They know Bbop, hard bop, they know uh Latin jazz, they know uh bugaloo jazz. They know the whole history. So we go up there and we start with some 19