Beyond the Cheeks: Sean Jones & Brinae Ali Revisit the Genius of Gillespie

Recorded live on the Journey of Jazz cruise, this episode of Jazz Cruises Conversations features an in-depth discussion on the legendary Dizzy Gillespie. Host Lee Mergner is joined by trumpeter Sean Jones and tap artist Brinae Ali to explore Dizzy’s physical trademarks, his deep spirituality, and his enduring influence on the evolution of jazz.

Key Takeaways

• The Myth of the Bent Trumpet: Sean Jones clarifies that while the most common story is that Dizzy sat on his instrument, the signature upward bend was purely cosmetic and did not change the sound of the horn.
• The Truth Behind the Cheeks: Dizzy’s iconic puffed cheeks were actually caused by a musculature disease that progressed over time, rather than incorrect playing technique.
• A Master Pedagogue: Despite his visual trademarks, Dizzy was a serious student and one of the greatest trumpet pedagogues in human history.
• Musical Versatility: Dizzy’s sound extended far beyond bebop; he lent his voice to everything from large orchestras to gospel and soul records like Soul’ed Out.
• Spirituality and Unity: A devout follower of the Bahá'í faith, Dizzy’s music—including his work with the United Nations Orchestra—was driven by a spiritual mission to bring people together.
• The "Dizzy Spellz" Project: Brinae Ali explains her "brainchild" project, which reimagines Dizzy’s music through the lens of Afrofuturism, incorporating tap dance and a turntablist to parallel the "good, bad, and ugly" of his times.
• Lorraine Gillespie’s Influence: Dizzy’s wife, Lorraine, was a professional tap dancer from Queens who played an instrumental role in his life and creative evolution.
• Spontaneous Composition: Jones describes improvisation not as "making stuff up," but as spontaneous composition where the musician uses years of harmonic awareness to create in real-time.
• The Lineage of Jazz: Jones argues there is no "separation" in the music, only extensions: Miles Davis is an extension of Dizzy, who was an extension of Louis Armstrong.

Sean Jones explains the history of jazz as a single, growing tree rather than a collection of separate plants. In this view, every new genre or legendary player is simply an "extension" of the same root system—where the sounds of the past, like those of Louis Armstrong, provide the essential nutrients for the "spontaneous compositions" of the future.

• Listen to more episodes of Jazz Cruises Conversations on Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. The back catalog contains more than a hundred interviews from past sailings.
• Theme Music: Provided by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Afrodeezia on Blue Note.

Transcript

Lee Mergner: Hi, welcome to Jazz Cruises Conversations. I'm your host, Lee Mergner. This week's episode is another from the Jazz on Film series that I hosted on Journey of Jazz. During these sessions, I show some film and video clips about a jazz legend and then interview one or more of our artists about the subject. During this session, I showed clips of Dizzy Gillespie and talked about his life and legacy with trumpeter Sean Jones. I hope you enjoy it.

Dizzy Gillespie (audio clip): Heat. Heat. If I play something and make people want to dance, that's an emotion. You're reaching way inside of them. You're not up here in the front, you know, like the intellect. You know what's that? You are reaching inside. When somebody says "Yeah" to you on the stage, it's a compliment. Yeah.

Lee Mergner: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Dizzy. Welcome back, Sean Jones. All right. I think I'm on here. So, when was the first time you heard Dizzy Gillespie? If Alonzo was here, he's like, "Oh, good call back". Well, if we don't want to get too trumpet wonky, but very basic, the story of the trumpet. Do you know it? Why it's like the bent thing and what that meant?

Sean Jones: Well, there's a few different stories, but I guess the most commonly agreed upon is that he sat on it and for some reason he continued to be able to play it. It bent in just a proper angle that it looked cool and he could still play it. So he just kept it. It actually doesn't change the sound at all. It doesn't do anything for it. It just cosmetically looks cool.

Lee Mergner: I don't think I've ever—have you ever seen any other trumpet player have it or use it?

Sean Jones: Yeah. Well, formerly known as Christian Scott, Chief Adjuah...Now he plays with his bell bent up. Roy played a little bit. Roy Hargrove had had it a couple times, but it wasn't a part of his look.

Lee Mergner: Speaking of another obviously recognizable thing: the cheeks and the air filling up the cheeks. What is that about?

Sean Jones: He had a disease. He was born with a musculature disease that progressed over time. It was not because he was not playing properly. A lot of people don't realize this about Dizzy Gillespie: he was one of the great trumpet pedagogues period in human history. He studied in South Carolina and he continued his studies in New York. He was a serious trumpet pedagogue and he loved trumpet players from all genres. But he unfortunately had that condition and it just spread over time. So a lot of the control that he lost later on in life was because of that condition.

Lee Mergner: Right, because he was not the same trumpet player towards the end of his life. Most trumpet players aren't, I think, as it is such a demanding instrument. 

Sean Jones: But one other thing is he kept practicing towards the end; he practiced all the time. Yeah. It was just to maintain where he was. If he didn't have that condition, could you imagine what kind of stuff he would play? It's crazy.

Lee Mergner: How did his music as a trumpet player evolve? Did he change his sound much or do you think it's pretty much still Dizzy all the way through?

Sean Jones: Much like Miles, I think that he lent his sound to various situations and he's a true student of the world and student of the music. And so you would hear him playing in all different types of settings. My wife and I went down a vinyl rabbit hole several years ago and there's a great record called Soul'ed Out. It’s spelled S-O-U-L-apostrophe-E-D. It’s like a soul record with gospel and singing on there. It's an amazing album, and when you listen to it, you'd be like, "Wow, that's Dizzy". He just lent his sound to everything, from orchestras all the way down to quartets.

Lee Mergner: And of course, the Latin thing. Chano Pozo was his first guy that he brought. But that continued. The stories of him going to Cuba—I have to tell this one quick story. On the first trip to Cuba in the 70s, a lot of the musicians were very frightened because Cuba was demonized and there were talks about hijacking. Some weren't sure they were going to get off. When the boat lands, the people gathered at the dock are yelling "Dizzy! Dizzy!" and he just walks off the ship like this, and everyone realizes it's okay.

Sean Jones: Yeah, well, the people always know what's up. 

Lee Mergner: He sought out a lot of the great musicians there at that time and was instrumental. How do you think he influenced you? Was it more the approach to the trumpet?

Sean Jones: His influence continues to grow. When I was a kid, of course, I was just fascinated by the high notes and this guy that had big cheeks. But over time I began to get into the spirituality. Dizzy Gillespie was huge into the Bahá'í faith and spirituality, and that led a lot of his musical contributions from the 60s up until the 70s. He was all about bringing people together all of the time, like with the United Nations Orchestra with Paquito D'Rivera and Danilo Pérez. So many others, like David Sánchez, got their careers with Dizzy Gillespie. He was just a uniting force. I'll never be the same because of Dizzy and we continue to evolve because of his music.

Lee Mergner: Tell us a bit about this project where you've been paying tribute to him. It's called Dizzy Spellz.

Sean Jones: Yes, Dizzy Spellz, spelled S-P-E-L-L-Z. I can talk about it because I'm a part of it, but the reason that I can't talk about it without her is because it is her brainchild. I would like to bring up my wife, Brinae Ali, to talk about this project if that's all right.

Brinae Ali: Thank you for having me up here. Dizzy Spellz really stemmed from me as a tap dancer listening to his music. I was exposed to it through my father, Alfred Bruce Bradley. Once I began to uncover who he was, it started with the song "Kush". I went down a rabbit hole and started to uncover information about Africa. You can hear all this story in one groove for 11 minutes. I researched him as a person and then I heard Sean's sound and I was like, "I got to do something with this guy right here". I told him I heard Dizzy in his sound. It's a reimagining of his music, using his story to parallel what was happening in those times—good, bad, and ugly. We learned that he ran for president. We parallel situations Dizzy experienced but also make a direct connection to today with themes of Afrofuturism. We have a turntablist on the set who's swinging on the turntables.

Sean Jones: It's an interesting project because Dizzy Gillespie's wife was a dancer. Can you tell us a little bit about Dizzy's wife?

Brinae Ali: Her name was Lorraine Gillespie. She was a dancer from Queens. I first learned about her through my mentor Mabel Lee, who used to work in the Apollo with Dizzy's wife. That is where Dizzy saw her; he tried to ask her out several times and she would turn him away. Eventually they got together and she played a very instrumental role in his life and evolution, which he talks about in his book, To Be or Not to Bop. She had her own tap dance studio in Queens.

Sean Jones: Dizzy needed his wife and I needed her. That's why I call her the alchemist.

Lee Mergner: Let's take a couple of questions.

Audience Member: Gillespie was talking about playing the piano. Do you play the piano? And could you relate to using the piano in your own trumpet playing?

Sean Jones: Totally. I do play piano, but you do not want to hire me for a gig. Basically, if you play the piano and you are harmonically aware, then you can compose. The better you can compose, the better it influences your thought process and you become more of yourself. Improvisation is spontaneous composition. We're taking the bulk of what we have learned over time and we are composing in real time for you within seconds. It's better if you have that harmonic awareness and understand form and structure, but some people can just hear it.

Lee Mergner: Sean is a teacher as well, a really accomplished educator. He runs the jazz program at Peabody Conservatory, the oldest conservatory in the United States.

Audience Member: I know there's a connection between Dizzy and Miles going back to Bebop, but how would you describe Miles's evolution or separation from Dizzy?

Sean Jones: There's no separation; there are only extensions. All of this music is an extension of one another. It's all under this umbrella we call jazz, but it's really Africanized music. Hip-hop music is Bebop music. R&B music is part of Bebop. It all comes from the same place. Every aspect of the music is being covered on one ship. It truly is our greatest export. Jazz is a democratic process because it is about individual freedom but with respect to the group. Miles is Miles because of Dizzy. Dizzy is Dizzy because of Louis Armstrong. Louis Armstrong is Louis Armstrong because of Buddy Bolden and everyone in between.

Lee Mergner: We have to clear the stage. Thanks, Sean. Thanks, Brinae Ali. Thank you, Dizzy Gillespie. That was some pretty amazing revelations. Sean will return to sail on the 2027 edition of Journey of Jazz, which sails January 24th through the 31st. Learn more at journeyofjazz.com. Our theme music is by Marcus Miller from his song "High Life" on his album Afrodeezia on Blue Note. Thanks for listening.